Hacker Newsnew | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submit | thatfrenchguy's commentslogin

> 1) Eliminate the H-1B visa entirely. If a company wants to hire an immigrant, they can just sponsor the Green Card up front, knowing the worker can fuck off once they have it. The net result would be decreased immigration and increased offshoring, which brings me to…

Do you know how long those take? Consular processing for green cards is painful as hell and somehow even longer than adjustment of status if you're in a non-backlogged country. The real solution here is obviously to allow self-sponsorship for employment based green cards.

> Companies that do 90% of their business in America but whose workforce (contractors, consultants, and FTEs) aren’t 90% American?

I mean, do you want to tax a company that hires foreigners, sponsor their green cards, just because some of their employees decide to not naturalize (say, like Apple or Google or Meta?) ? That makes zero sense.

> For-profit business models predicated on shunting workers onto every possible social welfare program

H1B folks aren't eligible for any social welfare program, even though they, e.g. contribure to Medicare / Social Security.


You're deliberately conflating different arguments to suit your preconceived opinions rather than read them as the individual arguments they are. Even so, I'll respond in earnest to each counter-point you're attempting to make:

> Do you know how long those take? Consular processing for green cards is painful as hell and somehow even longer than adjustment of status if you're in a non-backlogged country. The real solution here is obviously to allow self-sponsorship for employment based green cards.

I do, actually. I've navigated the immigration system as a sponsor, and it's hell. It's deliberately engineered to make it as difficult and expensive as possible to navigate successfully, and it's needed an overhaul for half a century. Using that as a wedge issue to deny reform, however, also hasn't worked for half a century, and has only resulted in a fatigued populace embracing fringe populism and naked fascism in an effort to see any movement at all on the issue.

Seriously, this was a big topic leading up to the 2008 election. Congress has dropped the ball dozens of times.

As for self-sponsoring, I'm not ready to open that can of worms given the immense exploitation it allows (essentially indentured servitude - which, to be fair, so is H1B, so let's not shift that exploitation further down the ladder either).

> I mean, do you want to tax a company that hires foreigners, sponsor their green cards, just because some of their employees decide to not naturalize (say, like Apple or Google or Meta?) ? That makes zero sense.

Yes, I do. If an employee decides not to Naturalize, then they're free to seek other employment on the job market with employers not phased by such penalties. Employers will naturally shift to only hiring Citizens or permanent residents pending Naturalization, not Green Card workers. This shifts the exploitation further down the chain rather than up front via temporary visas with no direct pathways to Citizenship, but to be clear, it does not eliminate exploitation of immigrant labor.

Immigration to another country is a serious decision to make. It comes with tradeoffs. We should want people willing to integrate - not assimilate, necessarily - into the country's fabric, put down roots, raise kids, contribute back to communities, and be good citizens. We don't want or need more rich tourists stopping by for a decade or two as permanent residents before fucking off back to their home country where the cost of living is cheaper, not when so many of our problems require long-term thinking and strategizing to solve - something citizens are best equipped to see through.

> H1B folks aren't eligible for any social welfare program, even though they, e.g. contribure to Medicare / Social Security.

I'm aware. You're conflating every single proposal after the H1B point in bullet 1 with all of them targeting H1B specifically. In this case I'm referring to the fast food industry, the retail industry, the service sector, the multitude of American enterprises who refuse to pay livable wages by design, so that taxpayers have to spend more on SNAP, Medicaid, Section 8, and other welfare programs for the working poor just so Walmart, or Amazon, or McDonalds can pay their shareholders and leadership panels even more money. This isn't even an "open secret" anymore, it's literally the business playbook for some of America's largest employers.

You're making decent enough arguments, but you're not doing the barest minimum research before making them. C'mon, you can be better than this, I know it.


> The question is - what % of this labor could be sourced domestically and what actually needs to be imported?

I mean, the other question is: how many US jobs exist because of folks who came to the country on H1B? Clearly none of the big tech companies would exist in the scale they are without us.


H1B was created in the 90s. The industry had been around for nearly 50 years at that point.

how many people were in the industry/needed 50 years prior? compared to 40 years later? any growth?

I would challenge that by saying SO MANY "software engineers" are net-negative producers, be it offshore teams in Asia or Eastern Europe or U.S. citizens. Partially a result of coding bootcamps. The recent tech layoffs in ~2022 that we are still reeling from is further evidence that maybe we don't need H-1B for software engineering roles. Medical? Absolutely.

You are being downvoted but you are totally correct. The tech industry existed before the H1B and was growing rapidly. There’s no evidence at all that the industry would have stopped growing without the H1B or that any company started by an H1B wouldn’t have been started by an American.

44% of unicorns founders between 1997 and 2019 were foreign born. 20% of those were specifically from India.

It seems like if Americans were just so much more dominant, they’d form a much higher percentage of unicorn founders given that the percentage of foreign born people in the US was about 15% at the highest.

Looks like foreign born immigrants are punching about 3 times their weight as startup founders.

https://gfmag.com/capital-raising-corporate-finance/us-unico...


You still have to be way more strategic so the inputs of your new factories don’t get tariffed as well, otherwise your higher labor costs will kill any desire to actually do onshoring.

If you have a recommandation algorithm you are not a dumb pipe


Yup, so that we can loose our innovation edge and loose the next Apple, Google or Nvidia. Amazing plan.


There's a big difference between cutting off all foreign-born talent—and addressing the serious issue of graduate school turning into an immigration racket; the current issue with graduate degrees is a very close mirror to the issue with H1b worker visas. The abuse of both systems has harmed Americans—and to some extent the long-term health of the tech industry and the academy.


American is built on immigration, and nearly all of us are immigrants or very recent descendants of immigrants. How in the world has immigration harmed Americans?


It's a NIMBY policy, pulling up the ladder. It's rooted in zero-sum thinking, that can't imagine "make the pie bigger" and can only imagine a fixed-size pie where their slice is getting smaller.

Given the impact the economy has on people's lives, it's an understandable fear. There's plenty of evidence for this not being the case (and in fact evidence for the "brain drain" strategy having substantial positive impact), but getting people to let go of a fear typically requires more than just hard evidence that it's unfounded.

(There's a separate branch of that fear, that imagines immigrants to be a drain on public assistance programs, but there's plenty of evidence that that is not the case.)

(Also, as always, policy is complicated and no comment that fits on a page is going to capture all the nuance of it or facets of it.)


Ask the indigenous Americans.


I think if you're going to argue that we shouldn't have contemporary immigration because of the harm to native Americans, then you should show what harm is caused _now_, that native Americans actually oppose immigration, and probably that you support other ways of helping them like giving them land back.


If you go back far enough everyone comes from a line of invaders, so I fail to see how this contributes to anything.


Not a fair comparison.

Immigrants are not killing Americans en masse nor taking the land by force.


Would you be ok if the schools only allowed foreign students from certain countries?


> Would you be ok if the schools only allowed foreign students from certain countries?

Yes

Practically, schools already do.


Who cares if it's an easy path if the person graduates with the degree. It should be easy to immigrate here if you get an advanced degree. If you get a degree not in demand then you should be just as unhireable


A degree from Bullshit University in bullshitting should not grant any extra immigration rights because it doesn't mean anything. Although... the current administration must have high demand for bullshitters.


Bullshit university should not be accredited and BSU should be shut down. An unaccredited school should have no effect on immigration policy


Unaccredited universities are allowed to exist.


What point are you making?

That after BSU loses their accreditation they should still be allowed to operate to keep their professors employed?

We were discussing immigration. An unaccredited university should have the same ability to help immigrants get visas as Best Buy.


> Unaccredited universities are allowed to exist.

And so are anti-vaccine YouTube channels


> The abuse of both systems has harmed Americans—and to some extent the long-term health of the tech industry and the academy

Can you please explain how it has harmed Americans and tech industry and the “academy”


Every country with benefits for old people dreams of being able to import high value workers who can provide those benefits.


They already lost their innovation edge with TikTok but they were able to steal it back with brute force. They must be counting on doing that again.


A simple house in the South Bay is $2 million or more. Is this a win for humanity?


It’s one of the most desirable places to live in the world, why wouldn’t it be one of the most expensive?


The people who can afford to live here spend all their time working, and no time participating in the community, much less enjoying and appreciating the things that make the area special.


Is your complaint that you cannot afford to live in a place where intelligent, well educated people are getting payed insane amount of money?

And are you implying that the solution is to stop those highly desirable people from coming in because that will help you afford a place in South Bay?

In other words since you cannot compete with them, outlaw them?


We all know the actual solution is to build housing, right?


I mean, yes, the benefits (and sometimes harms) of those companies to humanity reach multiple orders of magnitude more people than the microcosm of the Bay Area housing crisis.


What's the relationship between this comment and the topic of discussion?


The point was - Do we really benefit from these companies in our backyard, or are they destroying local communities?

Is a trillion dollar company in your backyard really a good thing?


This is a non-sequitur. Making immigration impossible or stopping science funding or whatever is not going to change the behavior of a market profiting off of housing.


Could be the biggest own goal in human history.


Fairly certain 1930s Germany ranks higher in this regard by quite a margin.


As I understand, 1930s (and 1920s) Germany was not a desirable place due to the losses from WW1.

I meant more of a place where things are mostly going OK (compared to most other places), and resources (human and natural) are available, so any failure modes have to come from within.

Germany flipped over the boardgame while losing, but USA flipped it over while winning.


It already is.


That stuff is so bad for you though that raising the price probably decreases the country's total healthcare costs by quite a bit.


I think you mean, spend $0 instead, given how many folks are donating toys on local facebook groups


I mean, 75% of americans are overweight or obese right? It's wild that the richest / least obese counties in the US still have 15% of people who are obese ( https://datacommons.techsoup.org/ranking/Percent_Person_Obes... )


> I could get a home near a major airport like 10 mins from SFO

You need a lot less than 40m$ to get a house 10 minutes from SFO, Daly City or outer neighborhoods in SF have homes for less than a million for sale right now


Our kids are not going to be happy we spun up more CO2 generation for this.


their uploaded minds will enjoy the infinite AI slop though


I hear they LOVE Sanctuary Moon.


Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: