Hacker Newsnew | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submitlogin
How Ambient Chill Became the New Silence (topic.com)
121 points by wyndham on Nov 11, 2019 | hide | past | favorite | 100 comments


Lately I've been spending a lot of my working-with-a-laptop-at-a-cafe time at places that have outdoor seating. And another chunk of that time has been sitting outside at a very nice park I live nearby.

There is no music except for occasional snatches of it from passing cars. Instead there is the wind in the trees, various birds having their conversations, and perhaps kids playing if I'm near the playground. It's really kind of wonderful.

I find myself thinking that a cafe whose playlist is nothing but natural ambient sounds - maybe you walk in and the playlist is "jungle fauna", or "rainstorm", or "tranquil beach" - would be really cool, but I also know that running a small cafe is a ton of work and a great way to probably lose a ton of money. Maybe I'll suggest that at one of the cafes I work inside of on a regular basis.


I went through a period of listening to natural sounds, rivers, forests, rain, thunder, waves, etc. It's surprisingly easy to detect loops and repeats.

There are some nice apps for blending sounds.

Seems like a good space for ML to play, producing unique, but authentic feeling sounds.


You could also just get a recording from someone who went out to a beautiful-sounding place and recorded several hours, these have existed since before digital sampling techniques, much less machine learning. Looping short samples is pretty much the worst way possible to generate a soundscape.


You’d think and yet Spotify playlists are mostly full of exactly that - short clips maybe 2 minutes long, it’s so jarring it’s impossible to listen to.


I do enjoy myNoise, but I find their mobile apps to be usability headaches a lot of the time.


Just use the website. Add it to the home screen (on Android) and it functions like an app. The only downside is that it requires Internet to load the noise generator.

Stephane Pigeon of myNoise.net made the website himself, but hired out the app development.


>I went through a period of listening to natural sounds, rivers, forests, rain, thunder, waves, etc. It's surprisingly easy to detect loops and repeats.

Perhaps, but there are several sound libraries with 10hours + non looping recordings...


The rainforest cafe does jungle and even an occasional thunderstorm.

It's quite successful too. (There's one right outside disneyland in Los Angeles)


I look forward to the day that society treats combating noise pollution with the same level of seriousness as combating other types of pollution. It appears that day is still far off.


Things are slowly moving at the European level but some initiatives were recently taken. See https://ec.europa.eu/environment/noise/directive_en.htm and https://www.europarl.europa.eu/factsheets/en/sheet/75/air-an...


> same level of seriousness as combating other types of pollution.

So not very seriously at all?


There's such a pressure group in the UK: https://pipedown.org.uk/


I have tinnitus because I've spent the last two decades playing music through headphones to block out conversations and often music at work and in my commute. I'm still equally distracted/disturbed by other people's noise as day one.


You had your ear wax checked? I thought I had tinnitus for years, then one time when getting checked on for a nasal infection the nurse commented on how waxy my ear was and asked if I'd like it removed. I thought sure and wow... my tinnitus immediately and completely went away. Just saying, get that checked if you have tinnitus. Turns out ear wax build-up is a major cause of it (it pushes against the ear drums).


This same thing happened to me. Nurse commented on my ear wax and upon removing I felt so much better (and had no more ringing).


Why the buildup? I've used q-tips every 3-4 days since a child and never had any ear wax buildup problems...


Q-tips aren't supposed to be used for cleaning wax out of ears. That's not what they're for, and the manufacturer and much of the medical establishment actively advises against it.


>Q-tips aren't supposed to be used for cleaning wax out of ears.

Well, they've worked just fine for me and millions of others (it's their most popular use). That said, there are indeed accidents from misuse.

Not sure what other people buy them for in the billions and have them at every bathroom. Cleaning vinyl records and nails?


They're (meant to be) used for applying and removing makeup, taking samples of fluids for medical purposes (e.g. DNA swab), cleaning small items such as jewelry or electronics, applying glue in arts and crafts.[1] Using them for ear cleaning is associated with a number of risks to the ear.[2] But you do you.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotton_swab#Use

2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotton_swab#Medical_risks


>They're (meant to be) used for applying and removing makeup

There are specialty items mostly commonly used for the latter (cotton pads), and I'm not sure the reason almost every household has cotton swabs in their bathroom for fringe activities like: "taking samples of fluids for medical purposes (e.g. DNA swab), cleaning small items such as jewelry or electronics, applying glue in arts and crafts".

That leaves "applying makeup" as the other main use.


I didn't say most households were using them for their intended uses. And I'm not trying to convince you to change course.


(Yeah, I use them in my ears too).

Cotton swabs aren't as precise as a Q-Tip for some types of cleaning/detailing.


Some people produce more earwax than others.


Is there a home remedy for this, or is this ear wax extraction something only a medical professional can perform?


Sure, hydrogen peroxide poured into your ear will dissolve it, but it might take a few "rinse and repeat" cycles.


Put a few drops of vegetable oil in your ears every night. After a few days or a week, it works its way out on its own.

At least, that's what my sisters tell me, both of whom get regular build-up of wax in their ears.


Before you played music too loud, actually. Playing music on a low volume will not give you tinnitus.


Playing music at a low volume also won't block out background noise.


YMMV. For me, background noise in general isn't the issue. Rather the issue is specifically people talking, because my mind begins following their conversation. If I can render their voice unintelligible then it won't distract me. Low volume music often works for this.


As someone with tinnitus, it is so much worse than background noise.

Now I love background noise because it's the only way I can escape tennitus (I hate headphones)


blocking/masking noise at safe volume levels is very much possible with in-ear monitors and Comply Isolation tips


Better isolation will allow you to lower the volume. Etymotic ER4XR are my current go-to.


Then get some noise canceling headphones, over the ear, and that will take care of the background noise.


NC headphones will though.


Not so much. They blow low frequencies, but not conversation or even music on the subway.


Unless you work at a construction site, it will to a very good extent.

Do you really need to drown office noise completely through maxed out music?


"ambient music for shopping spaces, these days, is meant to soothe you or pump you up, and generally nudge your habits toward consumption"

Fortunately, we do have some resistance to this in the form of portable music players.

I virtually never hear any music at any of the venues or stores I visit, because I'm always listening to my own.


Maybe I'm alone here but I almost think this is worse. Granted the manipulative aspect of using specific music to set a mood in public places can be kinda gross, but I don't like that the alternative is that now everyone's in their own bubble and further isolating themselves from the people around them.


In my experience, people are already almost completely isolated even without headphones.

With or without headphones, the only strangers who come up and talk to me are people who want something from me, like beggars, people seeking directions, or people trying to sell me something. As someone who's not very social around strangers, I rarely initiate conversations with strangers myself.

Listening to my own music just makes getting through the world more pleasant for me. It doesn't make me significantly more isolated.


Here are some initiatives taken by transporation organizations to encourage people to talk to each other, like introducing a "chat carriage" on the train: https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/public-transport-ch...

For example:

> The results showed that those asked to chat felt far more positive about their journey than those who kept to themselves, and that the longer people talked for the better they felt.

A world where the only people who talk to you outside your fortress are beggars, scammers, and salesmen is a sad one. Not to say you're always ready for a conversation with a stranger every time you leave your house, but there is also a chance of serendipity in the most unlikely exchanges.

I met a woman I dated for a year at a supermarket. This woman next to me was spending a lot of time comparing fruit, like gently tapping them and squeezing them. She hadn't even put one in her basket yet. I stood across from her and put some plums up to my ears as if to listen to them, mockingly, which started a conversation that we picked up that evening at a bar. It's something I think about when I err on the side of not interacting with those around me since it was a bit out of character for me.

It's one of the spices of life.


The chat carriage idea actually sounds really cool. Like, there are some days where I feel like I would love to use it, but there are definitely others when I just need to rest in some piece. But given that we are all in the same space on the bus right now (without this chat carriage idea implemented), I always default to being as silent as possible to give other people the opportunity to not be bothered. Hell, I even reject all phone calls I receive while on the bus.


The homeless actually make great conversation and it humanizes them. If you don’t give cash, at least don’t alienate them.

Granted it can be very emotionally draining.


I take it you have never been assaulted by an angry drunk before.


> I take it you have never been assaulted by an angry drunk before.

That's a non-sequitur. Regardless, if you are looking to get assaulted by an angry drunk talking to homeless people isn't a very effective method. For best success try pick up bars with an 20-30 year old clientele, or just accost someone on the street who is already visibly drunk and antagonistic; they are (unintuitively?) unlikely to be homeless but will often happily have a go at you.


No, but I didbsit there and listen to a really drunk dude sitting on the street once who'd just broke his 10 year sobriety after coming home and finding his wife fucking s room full of men about a half hour before I ran into him. He was about halfway through a 40 of whiskey by that point.


No, but they have been snarked at by forum commenters and their assumptions. Should the parent distrust every person commenting from now on?


Dude I live in the tenderloin.


You and the parent both have excellent points, and I frankly agree with both of you. I think, at least in the US, many public spaces are trending towards isolation of the population. Specifically I'm thinking of gyms (where its no longer OK to interact with someone with headphones on), or bars/clubs where the music is literally so loud you cannot talk to someone standing right next to you. I believe all of this is in some way related to us becoming more lonely/depressed, and of course we self-medicate in the only way we know how: consumption.


I think all of those have their place.

There are loud bars/clubs you go to with your friends at times when you want to let all your energy out and just drink, dance, and listen to music without having to worry about carrying a conversation.

There are also quieter and more fit for socializing bars and music venues, where you wanna go to shoot shit with the bartender, have a conversation with your friend you haven't seen in a while, or just relax and talk to people in your neighborhood who tent to visit that place often while chilling with a drink.

And I love the fact that in most cities I've lived in within the US, there are plenty of both, because I definitely like to utilize all of those options. More choices is always better.

The only example of yours I heavily disagree with is the gym one. It isn't a proper place for socializing imo, assuming you are talking about the weightlifting/cardio stuff. Team sports areas like basketball court or a soccer field (where I see a LOT of socializing happening) are a completely different story, however.


Alternatively, those are all examples of refusing to allow vaguely annoying extroverts to force their views of how the world should be on everyone around them. I just want to drink/lift/eat, please stop talking to me.


Funny, I have polar opposite opinions about those examples. I hate loud music in bars because I love to have deep random conversarions, but the last thing I want in the gym is someone talking to me.


Just like automating away cashiers, an increasingly isolated population is something Japan's been doing that the US is just starting to catch up to. A lot of it could be chalked up to cultural differences, but something feels off when you're in one of the most densely-populated cities and striking up conversations with strangers is taken as a big faux pas. I'm still a graduate student and I've been on campuses for a while, and the increasing normalization of walking while looking down at your phone is reaching preposterous levels to where I would rather bump into someone glued to their screen before I move out of the way for their sake. I fear the day that mouth masks to further shield away interactions comes to the West.


You can talk to people in loud clubs, you just have to shout in their ear. Guys who are trying to pick up girls do it all the time though I've always thought it was too much effort. The smoking area is my favourite place in bars and clubs because people there are more social and no one feels pressured cos they can leave when they finish their cig or stay for another. Shame I quit smoking, there needs to be a healthy alternative that's not vaping. Vaping doesn't work because it has no natural end point.


>With or without headphones, the only strangers who come up and talk to me are people who want something from me, like beggars, people seeking directions, or people trying to sell me something

In the US maybe. In other parts of the world it can be quite different...


It's actually hilarious when some store employees/managers will desperately try to get your attention even if you're wearing headphones to tell you about their sales. If I want to be left alone then leave me alone!

(I only did this once but it was very eye opening)


I've generally found that when headphones aren't enough to dissuade people from talking to me, I start intently looking at my phone like I'm reading an important email. It works wonders even if the screen is off.


https://wanna-joke.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/funny-peop...

I think the picture makes the point on its own, but at the risk of being accused of Reddit style image replies: Prior to phones, people weren't automatically any more social with random strangers than they had to be.


The reason people don't like these replies is not that they're "Reddit style" but rather that they're very low information. How do we know that the "oh wait" picture is actually representative?


No you're not alone. But most people do it because garbage mainstream "inoffensive" music is blasted almost everywhere you go


"earbuds in" is sort of like a social bloom filter. I'm not terribly social but I've started to try striking up casual conversation in lines and similar situations. most people don't really want to talk, but people wearing earbuds definitely don't want to talk. it's at least a mildly helpful signal.


> Granted the manipulative aspect of using specific music to set a mood in public places can be kinda gross

I suspect many malls are pumping potpourri scent into the HVAC system. It pervades the malls.


Walmart plays music depending on the demographic that shopping at a particular time of day (thanks to their endless analytics).

I've gone there at times I wouldn't normally, like Sunday at 6 AM because I put it off and need something now, and it's like I'm on the wrong radio station.

So if you're ever at a Walmart and don't like the music, you're just not shopping at the right time apparently.


Once went to a new Walmart after it opened before they had the sound system set up and boy was it eerie.


Soon they'll brand wearing headphones as adblocking and ask you to remove them or leave their store.


…startup

Mutebox

The anti-jukebox that lets you mute restaurants' ambient music to bring back the vitality of your surroundings. For when your favorite cafe is playing experimental electronic music and you really came for the sound of espresso machines and light background noise while you crank out that TPS report. Or, the jukebox that exclusively plays John Cage's 4'33". [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4′33″


Yes! Maybe it could work like those song recognition apps. A microphone identifies the background music and then it plays an inverse waveform in to your earbuds to cancel it out. I would pay lots of money for that.


This is exactly how active noise cancellation works on many modern headphones/earbuds, although I don't think they actually try to identify the song.


Active noise cancellation devices that I've heard of try to analyze the noise to predict what it will do next so they know what to cancel out. They're expensive because they have to be fast enough to react to changes in the sound, and imperfect because they will always lag behind changes to the sound they're trying to cancel.

If you could identify the song then you could simply fast-forward it to know "what it will do next" and the cancellation would be much easier and more accurate.


This kind of noise cancellation really only works on constant drones, not more complex waveforms like music.


Combine that with a speech analyzer and synthesizer and you could theoretically even eliminate the voices of individual people (particularly that annoying person who sits near you in a cafe/plane/work).


Actually, that'd be perfect even if the person wasn't annoying. Be really great for long-haul flights when you need to sleep (such as US > Europe).


Like a noise canceling speaker I could place on the table to eliminate the music from that area?


The problem with that is the time differences between when things hit your ears, the speaker and the source.

I suppose it could work if your ears are always in a known place.

That’s why we can only make noise cancelling headphones.


this already exists. it's called Muzo, and ElectroBOOM reviewed it as an obvious scam.


I was curious if this was possible, and I did some quick research. From what I gathered, it's just not practical. There are a multitude of mutually interfering sources and reflective surfaces in a noisy real world environment. You just can't plop a mic down - or an array of mics - and cancel the audio it receives. You have to put the mic and the cancelling audio as close to the ear as possible, and isolate the listener as much as you can. Which we already have, in noise cancelling headphones.


So, the AirPods Pro with "transparency mode?"


No - that will not mute music around you, but allow you to hear it through the headphones.


Despite this trend, maybe it’s just me but I have never actually experienced elevator music. As in music playing in a literal elevator. Sometimes there’s a TV with weather reports and sports scores and “fun facts” that pop up but no music.


Those TVs in elevators and fuel pumps are evil. You can look away from the screen but the voices make it hard to think.


The ones in fuel pumps are the worst. In my town I make a point of avoiding any gas station that has sunk to that level, but they seem to be harder and harder to avoid especially when traveling.


YMMV but at least here in the southeast USA, the default GSTV signal can be turned off by pressing a combination on the 4 soft touch keys on the outside of the screen. If your buttons are like so,

1 | CONTENT | 5

2 | CONTENT | 6

3 | CONTENT | 7

4 | CONTENT | 8

try the sequence 5 6 5 . Here where I am at, that mutes the sound. Sometimes 7 8 7 also turns the screen off.

But! You need to put it back to screen on, sound on, or the staff will notice and you risk them changing the combination on you.


Around here it seems like I just have to push one button to turn the sound off. Presumably it comes back for the next customer but I have no idea.


The elevator ones I’ve seen are mostly silent, they just have a cycling static display. The gas station ones are a fucking abomination though.


Some of these can be muted by pressing one of the buttons, they're just not always labeled.


At the gas station I frequent, there are buttons around the periphery of the screen. One of these mutes the audio, making the necessity of refilling gas at least a little less unpleasant.


It's been a while since I've heard elevator music as well, although it used to be ubiquitous.

How ubiquitous? I worked in a hotel once, and even the cargo elevator (used by all employees) had it. Oddly, the speaker wires would get mysteriously snipped on a regular basis to make it stop. That would work for a couple of days until maintenance got around to reconnecting things.


I recall multi-floor department stores employing actual elevator music in their elevators 20+ years ago. Haven't been on an elevator in one recently, so can't comment on whether they still do it.


Elevators have gotten really fast now, it probably made sense for 70+ story buildings where you might be on the elevator for more than 60 seconds back in the day but many modern elevators are going 10 floors/sec at their max speed.


10 floors per second? Assuming 1 floor = 1 story = 3.3 meters, that's highway speeds.

Really fast indeed.


They're not quite highway speed, but still pretty crazy: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/the-surpri...

Peak speed: 18 m/s (40 mph)


the last time i heard elevator music was many, many years ago. seems like it was a thing in the 80s-early 90s department stores.


It mostly died out when the tape machines[1] it was played on were replaced with satellite and internet services that offer licensed commercial music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WQbJ0VFrFQ


> THE LOGICAL ENDPOINT of the demand for mood-based content might be something that’s not created by a human musician, but by an algorithm. Some players in the music industry are betting on this. Earlier this year, Warner Brothers Music partnered with Endel, a company founded in Berlin that creates customized “soundscapes,” mostly for individual consumers. Endel’s songs aren’t really songs; they’re endless sonic ecosystems of sorts, for activities such as focusing on work or sleeping.

http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html


I thought this was going to be about ambient electronic music, which is something totally different. Genre naming is fun. :) Still a worthwhile article to me.


Next time youre in a casino pay attention to the carefully curated lyrics of the overhead music they play


In the meantime, can you give us any hints?


I hate this. If the commercial world has any say we will not have quiet anywhere, ever.

Silence is so wonderful, why must we fill it up with noise?


I was reading The Nature Fix earlier this year and they mentioned there's very few places left in America where you can actually be free from human-made noise at daybreak. It was quite sad, and, as you mentioned, it's only going to get worse. I quite miss quiet, and wish more people felt the same way. Instead, it seems many hate quiet.


What I can’t stand is the lyric heavy “upbeat” music in grocery stores, even when it’s absolutely dreary out or late at night. I’m sure some folks like it. Maybe I should grocery shop with earbuds.


I do grocery shop with earbuds sometimes, because the store near me plays nothing but cheezy old love songs. I mean literally every song is a 'romantic' one. I'm not against all old pop music but that's just too much.




Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: