I'm a pretty paranoid guy about Big Brother and the surveillance state and what-not. That being said, I got a Ring to try it out. I got it at a huge discount and figured, if I don't like it, I'll sell it. I actually love this thing now - by far the best feature to me is how I keep on top of neighborhood happenings. I live in a nice part of down but, like many "nice parts", it's right around the corner from a not-so-nice part of town.
Package stealing, particularly this time of year, is rampant, and the first time I installed the app I was able to see all of these local reports near me and watch footage of people stealing packages. This is a HUGE deterrent as soon as word gets out that certain houses are "bugged".
I think about it from this perspective and immediately think of the "giving up liberty for safety" quote, but I refuse to have any speakers _inside_ of my home. The camera is pointing out towards the street, in broad daylight, in public. I like knowing when my dog walker shows up, when packages arrive, and of course when someone down the block sees a random guy trying to break into cars parked on the street.
Overall, I'm conflicted over it, but I'm reminded several times a day (when the thing goes off) that it's a _huge_ convenience to me, particularly as we have expensive packages delivered multiple times per week. As long as I own the data and police don't have default access to it, I'm cool.
Do you own the data? Do the police have access to it? What about Amazon or their partners?
Starting a post with a sentence about how you're a paranoid guy and dislike Big Brother and what-not, and then pivoting to spend multiple paragraphs on how you live in a nice neighborhood and don't mind providing data and surveillance on those around you feels more than a little disingenuous.
Despite (because of?) being an Amazon employee, though one who works nowhere near the Ring, I'd never buy a Ring - and I don't exactly think I'm the most "paranoid guy" about "the surveillance state and whatnot".
Isn't the whole point of the article that the corporate-cop partnerships which are budding here seem distinctly dystopian? Why post all of these positive aspects which -- ostensibly -- exist in competitors (Arlo, maybe?) without the shady downside?
Currently, the police do not have access to it. There is a centralized system they can use that simplifies the process for the police to request footage from a homeowners, but that's all it is, a request.
That said, since it is data in the hands of a third party, if the police really wanted that footage, they could issue a search warrant on Ring, and compel them to turn it over, just like they could compel you to turn over your footage with a subpoena or search warrant.
> Ring will only provide video content in response to a valid search warrant or with the verified consent of the account owner.
I know this is their stated, current stance, but given their sort of bizarre ball of incentives to integrate with the cop process as much as possible in order to drive revenue, I imagine that barrier - to the extent that it actually exists today - will degrade over time, if allowed to. You can't take your data back; in this case, you can't take your family's or neighbors' data back, either.
Yes, they do. Ring lets the police know that video evidence exists, and with that information, police can get a warrant for it.
It's hard to get a warrant for data when the police don't know it even exists, and it's even harder to get data that might not exist when it's you who decides the retention policy, and not Amazon.
It's weird how now Ring requires having to add a valid address/location for the doorbell, I remember first configuring it 2 years ago when I didn't have to add an address. Anyway, so I went and typed the name of a nearby large boulevard and selected the first suggested address. Then I started getting all those stupid neighborhood notifications because people are paranoid and report "someone walking on the sidewalk" as suspicious, so I went and editing the neighborhood range around the address to be as small as possible (I was able to zoom in to house level size), now it blissfully stopped sending any notifications.
I wish more people gave it crappy information/address.
I think you might be surprised how little of a deterrent surveillance cameras are to package theft. This likely depends on where you live, but in many cities the police won't really do anything about thefts in the value range of a typical package. I have multiple visible cameras on my house and have still had packages taken on a number of occasions by random transients. Even once had a woman come up on our porch, steal a package (put it in a bag she was carrying), and THEN ring our doorbell to see if anyone was home. Meth is a hell of a drug.
I feel the exact same way. Although, I got a remobell.
> police don't have default access to it, I'm cool.
That's the only thing that concerns me. Why are people up in arms about this? I mean if it deters people from stealing from you, that's a good thing also it's not pointed inside your house.
> That's the only thing that concerns me. Why are people up in arms about this? I mean if it deters people from stealing from you, that's a good thing also it's not pointed inside your house.
Because a citizen walking on the sidewalk doesn't consent to being captured with cameras everywhere they go. We know Amazon and other providers are including face recognition (and I wouldn't be surprised if they are working on other methods like gait recognition, tracking movement across cameras that are near each other etc).
Getting caught in the background of someone's selfie is one thing, mass surveillance by a mega-company and collaboration with the government/police is another. I should be able to go out in public without being tracked without my consent.
That's not even getting into data leaks, police corruption, and NSA style surveillance programs that this footage is inevitably going to get caught up in.
It is your right to choose. Devil's advocate question: would you feel the same if I followed you around your neighborhood filming you with my phone? These networks will become live video monitoring by the police and government because we need to stop "terrorists and pedophiles". How do you feel about 24/7 video surveillance being run by the government in all public spaces? This all feels too 1984 to me.
To be clear, I'm not against IoT devices but at least my Echo only listens to the sounds in the bathroom. That only affects me not everyone in my neighborhood. Video doorbells don't seem worth the loss in privacy just to get a packaged protected that Amazon will replace for free anyway.
Fair question. Of course I'd be against you following me around with your phone - but my Ring is pointed in my own front yard and walkway. A moving camera is different than a static one. I don't see how that's considered the same thing.
And my Ring will only start recording if someone is on my front porch (I have the range turned all the way down, with only the central zone recording [out of left/right/center]).
I don't know why that's invasive towards anyone who isn't trying to steal packages off my front porch. You won't show up on a recording unless you're on my property.
Maybe it's worth pointing out that I live in the suburbs and have a large front yard - I do understand your point for someone in an urban area who would theoretically be recording near-constantly as people walk by. But in this case, no one's showing up who isn't in my yard.
True, and it is good you have it turned down. But all your neighbors don't have too. They could be filming you 100% of the time you are outside. The biggest issue with these things is that they are networked and can be viewed 24/7 by people not outside your house right now. It is the scale of the surveillance that is most disturbing to me. I'm most worried about the people and cops turning my life into The Truman Show.
Yeah, that's all fair. Of course we're here on HN and natural tinkerers so the first thing I did was dial in the zones. Most people, as you mentioned indirectly, won't ever do this, and it'll just keep recording all day.
That being said we've had surveillance systems for ages and no one's ever thought about them, but I definitely get why people are nervous in some situations.
I kind of alluded to this but I even questioned my own ethics for a while with this thing. I lambast people for trading convenience for security or privacy all the time - the justification I give for having this myself is that a) it's not in my home (so I don't consider it a personal invasion), and b) it's restrained to my front porch and yard (so I don't consider it a public invasion).
Again, I can see why others would question my logic here.
Package stealing, particularly this time of year, is rampant, and the first time I installed the app I was able to see all of these local reports near me and watch footage of people stealing packages. This is a HUGE deterrent as soon as word gets out that certain houses are "bugged".
I think about it from this perspective and immediately think of the "giving up liberty for safety" quote, but I refuse to have any speakers _inside_ of my home. The camera is pointing out towards the street, in broad daylight, in public. I like knowing when my dog walker shows up, when packages arrive, and of course when someone down the block sees a random guy trying to break into cars parked on the street.
Overall, I'm conflicted over it, but I'm reminded several times a day (when the thing goes off) that it's a _huge_ convenience to me, particularly as we have expensive packages delivered multiple times per week. As long as I own the data and police don't have default access to it, I'm cool.