Usually languages don’t have it in a very explicit way though. If I try to use f-strings in python 3.5 I get a very explicit syntax error. If I rely on ordered insertions in Python3.5 I get a potentially difficult to diagnose bug.
Why does it matter if it's explicit or not. If python doesn't support forward compatibility, you should know that if you write code for 3.7, it's not gonna work in 3.5. Doesn't seem like a big deal to me.
If you’re the only one writing it and you’re the only one running it, it’s probably fine. But if I’m putting a file out there that will only work in 3.7, it’d be nice if any potential users of that file would get a good error message if they try to run it on 3.5, rather than wrong results.
I could potentially assert a version, but do I really want to do that each time I wrote something that might be used somewhere else?
And yes of course I could add a line of documentation, but there is a 100% chance I’d still get bug reports from people on 3.5.
If I rely on a python version and I expect other people to use it, I add a version if statement on top. I hate those packaging tools that insist on installing stuff in your system and create a frankendebian when really all I want to do is run a single py file standalone once. Often have to do chenanigans like "python3 -c 'from sometool import __app__'".
If you want to install it, go ahead and copy or symlink it in your ~/bin or whatever you fancy (that's your personal preference anyway unless I'd specifically package it for some OS like Debian). I don't want to have to use some setup.py that I have no clue where in my OS it installs things.
> I don't know how this custom file works that is duplicated and delivered with each project.
It's not duplicated and in most cases it's not even delivered as part of the installation.
> If you want to install it, go ahead and copy or symlink it in your ~/bin or whatever you fancy
That's exactly what pip will do if invoked with `--user`.
> I don't want to have to use some setup.py that I have no clue where in my OS it installs things.
It installs it to a single place. Run `python3 -m site` and look at `USER_BASE`.
To avoid a lot of this, use pipx[1] to keep things even more isolated.
> Often have to do chenanigans like "python3 -c 'from sometool import __app__'".
You're doing things wrong because you don't know the tooling. You'd also typically just do `python3 -m sometool`.
Things that are distributed as a single file are either so simplistic and have no other dependencies that you can just make do, or written by someone who doesn't know what they are doing and so you're going to have a bad time.
Yes, that would be a good idea. But if you ever run scripts you didn’t write, there’s the potential people didn’t do this, and you have the potential for hard to discover bugs. The language should be designed such that bugs are difficult to encounter, this is an instance where it wasn’t.
Major version changes are for API compatibility. If there is a change which makes all other 3.* incompatible, then it should be a major version increase.
I suppose Python doesn't even have backwards compatibility within the same major release as we saw with the addition of the async keyword in Python3.5. Many older Python 3 packages broke because they expected that to be a legal identifier for a variable name.
tensorflow didn't work on 3.7 for a solid 8 months because some people at google very unwisely decided that `async` and `await` were great choices for variable names, despite PEP492 landing in 2015.
that's because tensorflow is advertisement for Google and while it's technically open-source, it doesn't stand for any kind of community-project, it's all there to show off (and ingrain in its users) the way Google wants things to Go (just look at the byzantine Bazel-build-processes - tensorflow taking hours to build and pytorch about 10minutes...).
But in the case of downgrading, I'm fairly sure there's a number of other breaking changes that can't trivially downgrade minor versions. Like f-strings were only introduced in python3.6 as I recall. Async keyword only exists as of 3.4 as well I think?
I think the argument is that if you run code with f-strings and walruses on Python 3.5, the code will break noisily. Whereas if your code implicitly relies on ordered dicts, it could break silently. Syntax errors rarely cause subtle, hard to track bugs.
Sure, but you can't safely take everything from a higher version to a lower version in any case; if insertion order became gauranteed due to a bugfix, and wasn't backported, you'd be in the same boat.
The only way to consistently code cross-version is to start with the lowest you plan to support (assuming the higher versions are actually backwards-compatible).
Does any language gaurantee that code is both backwards and forwards compatible?
Issue seems to be silent incorrect behavior, what happens if you attempt to run python code containing f-strings using an older python version. Does it raise an exception? That's good! What happens now if you write code for 3.7 which takes advantage of the new ordering and someone grabs it from your repo and runs it using 3.2, it would happily give incorrect results and noone is the wiser.
OrderedDict is slow and expensive though: it maintains ordering through a doubly linked list.
It has useful features for manipulating ordering but while I've regularly needed had use for maintaining insertion ordering I can't remember ever needing to move items around within a map.
If memory serves me correctly, ever since dicts became ordered the OrderedDict simply became a subclass of dict, so it will have exactly the same performance characteristics.
OrderedDict was always a subclass of dict maintaining additional information (which is not free, it has to store and manipulate two pointers per entry).
It remains so today, ordereddict is not an alias or trivial facade to the normal dict because it has to maintain its doubly linked list and implement a bunch of additional operations based on that e.g. pop first or move to end.
The trouble is I publish a (new) code that advertises itself as working on 3.x and then it turns out it is being used by a person who only had the version prior to this change.
That said, Go made a similar change (from insertion-order to explicitly-randomized) and world didn’t end. So there’s that.
I thought Go made the change from undefined behaviour with an underlying implementation that was insertion order in a map with 8 or fewer entries, to similarly undefined behaviour with an implementation that randomised lookups in those cases. Any code that has ever relied on any kind of ordering in Go maps will almost certainly be wrong, even random ordering, because the distribution of the "random" ordering is biased.
Yeah I think this is probably my main issue. I don't think it's reasonable to ask users of your code to always use 3.7+ instead of 3.6 if they are usually expected to be compatible. And it's also unnecessary to break such compatibility for something like preferring dict over OrderedDict anyways. At least I would try to avoid any such issues by still using OrderedDict.
That said, I have no idea about the internals of dict. I assume no performance was sacrificed for this change.
It actually improves performance. Or at least, it comes along with a set of performance improvements that give you ordering for free. Raymond Hettinger has a great talk on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npw4s1QTmPg&t=1s
Using OrderedDict is actually nice in this case, even if the default dict has the same ordering. That way you're explicitly saying you rely on that behaviour and it makes reading the code easier.
Python is nothing like its guiding principles. That's why it's Zen -- the principles are a collection of contradictory statements, given what you will encounter in real world Python. You're meant to be confused and meditate on it.
Well... full support for 3.6 ended in December of 2018 (now it only has security fixes), the older versions are already unsupported.
Also, this change was implemented 3.6, but in 3.7 they officially documented it as a language feature (i.e. that all other Python implementations also need to preserve the order).
Furthermore, there's a lot more stuff that are not backward compatible after 3.6 or 3.7, and if you're writing a library that targets other versions, I would hope that you have tests for all said versions.
> Code written for Python 3.7 might break on older versions of Python
That's a truism. For all versions of Python. If you use feature of python ver X, you should not be surprised that it doesn't run on versions less than X that lack that feature!!!
If you write a Python library and use feature of Python ver X and don't mark library as only >= Python ver X, you are doing it wrong and a horrible person.
Dicts have been effectively ordered since 3.6. Iteration order was literally randomised (at process start) before 3.6. I'm also not sure whether the behaviour under deletion was changed between 3.6 and 3.7 so it's possible that there are subtle differences there.
Portability isn't affected; if they claim compatibility with python3.7, then they claim their dicts have insertion-ordered keys.
If they claim compatibility with only up to python3.6, they can have whatever order they choose.
The only issue with portability is that I think the main reason it was made a gaurantee is that cpython found the new, presumably optimized, implementation came with insertion order for free, so they went ahead and gauranteed it. But that might not be an optimal strategy in other areas, but they're forced to follow along anyways.
But actually moving cpython code to say ironpython should not be impacted, unless ironpython lies about it's compatibility
The insertion order dict implementation comes from Raymond Hettinger who is amongst other things a core CPython developer. pypy pulled the trigger on using it first (and probably has optimisations CPython doesn't). PHP also used it before CPython did, IIRC. And possibly Rust (as the third-party indexmap).
