To clarify, I'm skeptical of the article's attempt to point at racism, not of the existence of racism in general, neither even in the context that the article places it in. I'm criticising the article.
I must say I don't appreciate your attempt to connect my comment with racist views you may have encountered in the past. I invite you to consider your comment in the context of the HN guidelines about responding to the strongest interpretation of others' comments, which I believe you ommitted to do in this case.
(And I edited this and deleted other comments to make the whole exchange less combative, also in the spirit of HN guidelines).
I'm sorry you feel that way. To be clear, I am not calling you racist (whatever that means exactly) and I am not calling that sentence racist, etc. But I have said racist things and held racist perspectives in my life; I'm human; I probably still do, unwittingly. I take that seriously - it hurts people, maybe more than anything else in humanity. (To make clear my position: I'll be damned if the scourge continues, on anything like its current scale, past my generation.) Also, sometimes I say things that unwittingly contribute to racism. If you did one of those things - I'm not saying you did - it wouldn't make you the devil. It's not about judging you; I assume you don't want to do these things either.
This is my personal point of view in more detail. From the GGP:
> The article makes a very strenuous effort to make a point about something something racism in rock that sounds a bit boring and trite to my ears.
IMHO that sentence makes a joke of the article's points about racism, and calls them "boring and trite". Also, importantly it's an expression of feelings, not facts and reasoning.
I'm saying it fits a general pattern: Very often IME, when racism is mentioned, people express skepticism in the same manner. The manner is an essential factor: It implies (and the GGP sentence says almost explicitly), 'these people can be ignored; I won't give them the time of day'. The power imbalance, that the vulnerable can be ignored, is at the core of racism; it allows racism to continue and be perpetuated; it puts the vulnerable under constant threat. Whether intended or not, I think the sentence repeats and reinforces that.
To dramatize it, imagine a city council hearing: Someone says they are the victim of ongoing violence and threats from their neighbors, and gives a reasoned, factual account. The city council member doesn't ask detailed questions and explore the issue and possible solutions, they say, 'something something threats - how boring and trite'. It's a clear message that nobody need care and the attacks can continue.
>> IMHO that sentence makes a joke of the article's points about racism, and calls them "boring and trite". Also, importantly it's an expression of feelings, not facts and reasoning.
I understand what you are saying but I think it's an overgeneralisation. My comment said that the way the article frames the subject is boring and trite, not that the racism it is trying to point to doesn't really exist. I agree it does.
I don't want to have to give ideological credentials here because I don't think that's healthy in any situation, but of course I think that the existence of racism in the music industry, as anywhere is a problem. But everyone who tries to point out the problem doesn't do an equally good job and I've sure seen people do it very clumsily. I think the article is all over the place and doesn't quite hit the spot when it comes to sensitising the reader to the issue.
Edit: to clarify, in the following sentence:
>> The article makes a very strenuous effort to make a point about something something racism in rock that sounds a bit boring and trite to my ears
The phrase: "that sounds a bit boring and trite" has "a very strenuous effort" as a subject, not "a point about something something racism". I find the effort boring and trite, not the point.
I admit that this is not the only interpretation of my comment, but, again, I think it is the strongest interpretation - and it's certainly my intended interpretation.
Edit again: And the "something something racism" is meant to express my frustration at the author's inability to pin down the subject they're trying to discuss, not to deny racism exists. I mean, I read a huge article that kept meandering and never really getting to the point. I wanted to read more about what Dylan said and why, what were his experiences that formed his opinions. But I read a bloated piece stitching together bits and pieces of rock and roll history that may have been related, or not. I just didn't like the article.
Thanks for a reasonable discussion - about racism! on the Internet!
I'm not sure the interpretation of one sentence bears more examination (as I imagine you might agree). I think we would agree that there are various reasonable interpretations, which may be more or less apparent to different people, and that of course a comment on HN isn't scripture or a $100 million contract where every nuance is carefully authored and then reviewed by the counter-party; it's something written and read in a minute at most.
Beyond what I said, I think another instinct of mine is that people often find something to criticize, changing the subject, rather than addressing the racism. For example, person X asserts something about racism, and the response is 'X has two illegitimate kids and said something mean to their neighbor!' But that is too broad a pattern to say it describes this one specific comment.
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Any Athens metal recommendations? The most creative, eccentric, Athens-in-particular-and-ignore-every-other-tradition musician?
I’m more in favor of Septic Flesh over Rotting Christ these days when it comes to Greek metal outside the innumerable power metal bands that dominate mainstream European metal. Not sure if they’ll ever top Sumerian Daemons as a metal album but given Christos is also a very serious orchestral musician it’s a driving force behind the band today despite the even more orchestral side projects.
>> Thanks for a reasonable discussion - about racism! on the Internet!
You're welcome. I'm happy you see it this way too.
>> Any Athens metal recommendations? The most creative, eccentric, Athens-in-particular-and-ignore-every-other-tradition musician?
Unfortunately, it's been ages since the time I was in a band and knew the scene and much of that time was spent abroad. I don't even know what happens back home anymore.
The standard recommendation is Rotting Christ, who have never been my cup of tea yet I did listen a lot to one of their recent ish records:
I even remember playing gigs with some of them back in the day, but I won't say which so as not to age myself :) Anyway Necromantia are probably the best known (other than Rotting Christ). I seem to remember really liking Varathron myself.
But remember it's black metal. Knowing the scene from inside, many took all the pagan and ancient-Greek stuff way too seriously from whence it's an easy leap to nationalism ...though I never understood how Greek nationalists could then become neo-nazis as some did. The nazis fucked Greece bad in WWII. How could a Greek nationalist admire them? Anyway, for example, Naer Mataron are the band of Giorgos Germenis, an MP of neo-nazi Golden Dawn (now outlawed). There's a lot of that in Greek black.
Yes, early on the article made me think about a division in the music industry I didn’t think about specifically before. So far so good. ~50 pages later I had no more to show for it than a number of interesting tangents.
I must say I don't appreciate your attempt to connect my comment with racist views you may have encountered in the past. I invite you to consider your comment in the context of the HN guidelines about responding to the strongest interpretation of others' comments, which I believe you ommitted to do in this case.
(And I edited this and deleted other comments to make the whole exchange less combative, also in the spirit of HN guidelines).