"they're all full of lonely developers and other socially awkward people - short guys looking for girlfriends, unattractive/aging women looking for husbands, etc."
So...people like you?
you sound really judgemental man.
Since you have no friends(so nothing to hold you where you are, right?), and apparently a good source of income, I'd advise you to go remote, travel, try digital nomadism, go to meetups, meet other travelers, maybe try coworking spaces? hacker houses/airbnbs with people from lots of different places?
Even supposedly "unattractive" or "aging" women can start to look more attractive as you get to know them. It's really amazing the transformation that can happen. So much of what is attractive is subjective. It's hard to see that when younger, but it's true. Besides, the attractiveness we associate with youth inevitably fades anyway.
I can attest to this. In my 30’s with kids and suddenly women with well behaved kids are more attractive to me. You can find attraction in qualities as much as looks.
Never thought this would happen to me as looks was almost the only thing that mattered (as much as I didn't want that to be the case), but it did.
After my first horribly failed marriage (and damaged kids due to wife being a complete failure), something clicked in my head and I finally find personality extremely important.
Not sure if it's an age thing or just a change after trauma, but it's been a very positive change.
Weight is still somewhat important at the extreme, but otherwise it's been a 180* shift - really fascinating.
Eh, I wish them all best of luck, I'm sure they're great people. My point was that people seem to attend various hobbies to find romantic partners, rather than friends.
But putting it the way you did; maybe if we saw a picture of you and if you look like a hunchback smurf then you maybe can say things the way you put them. 'People who attend various hobbies tend to do that to find romantic partners' is a fine way of putting it instead.
But you are right; I find that too, which is why I just go work in bars (I mean; sit and code, not serve beer!) instead of trying to meet people at hobbies (Which, for me, are all nerd/hardware/software things anyway). Even without drinking (which I don't do during working time), it is very easy to meet tons of people. And it works everywhere. The best craft beer bar in my new town (I move often) is open 8 am to 2 am, it's always busy and over 90% of the people just drink coffee there (with 15 beers on draft + more in bottles), the entire day. I work there and when I need a break, I just look around for 5 minutes and someone will make eye contact and start talking. Works everywhere I have been I found (in the US, EU, Asia).
In this scenario do you just sit at the bar and start working? I’ve never been at a bar where this wouldn’t be very strange. But I’ve only been to bars at night on the weekends.
A sober look at how society judges people should remove all surprise surrounding this topic, unfair as it may be - men are judged primarily by financial / dominance success / physical indicators of dominance (e.g. height) and women are primarily judged on their appearance / youth.
> So...people like you? you sound really judgemental man.
I know it sounds bad, but I don't want to meet people like me. I really don't like myself right now :) I'm looking for a way out from this state, not a way to settle in.
It's like you can't treat depression by hanging out with other depressed people, it'll make you worse.
> Since you have no friends(so nothing to hold you where you are, right?), and apparently a good source of income, I'd advise you to go remote, travel, try digital nomadism, go to meetups, meet other travelers, maybe try coworking spaces? hacker houses/airbnbs with people from lots of different places?
Traveling and digital nomading is definitely on my list, the pandemic delayed the plans. I'm afraid though, that it'll only lead me to meeting more and more developers. I tried a bunch of coworking spaces in my area, and this is exactly what happened. Meetups in my area were also only tech-related.
How do you know they’re like you? How do you know all the single guys there are just looking to hook up or find girlfriends? How do you know all the aging, unattractive women are just looking for a husband? Feels like you are projecting.
To give a different perspective - I also took dance classes before COVID. I went into it with the mindset that I wanted to learn how to dance (to wit, I failed miserable). If dancing is secondary to you, it’s going to be noticed (people can pick up on desperation). Don’t treat it as the chore you have to do before you can talk to someone. My favorite dance partner was a widow that just wanted to dance with a man who knew how to take lead on a dance. She wasn’t looking to date. Just dance and have a conversation. Many of the single women I met there were the same. I made some good friends (not call at 2am for bail money friends). Men and women.
> Meetups in my area were also only tech-related.
Did you try meetup.com? Did they only had tech events where you are? If so, that’s crazy. I found my virtual book club from meetup.com (win!). I tried a wine tasting, but it was 3 groups of people who knew each other and me (loss!). Did learn a lot about wine (win!). Not every meetup is going to be successful so pick things that are actually interesting vs. trying to guess which one will have the most people.
To sum all this rambling up - you have to be interested in the activity of the event. If you’re not and you treat it like a chore, people can tell.
> I wanted to learn how to dance (to wit, I failed miserable)
Perhaps you gave up too early, or had a poor coach. I am terribly awkward, but I persisted, and eventually people who didn't know me told me I was "talented". What a laugh.
Unfortunately my school was closed due to COVID. And it was one of those that couldn’t weather the time closed. I’m going to pick it back up, and go into it realizing that Fred Astaire I ain’t :)
So this is a bit offtopic (but maybe ontopic for HN), did meetup go through some change in ownership, revenue model etc. ? I can agree with the observation that meetup.com doesn't have as many fun/cheap/random/hobby based meetups any more. Everything feels a lot more commercial compared to a few years ago. Maybe it's area specific, maybe it's COVID, maybe it's a bunch of different factors. I think you need to pay to host a meetup whereas it used to be free earlier ?
> did meetup go through some change in ownership, revenue model etc. ?
Yes, and yes, and yes. It was bought by WeWork and then sold off. It went through an effort to monetize attendance. It raised costs on group organizers. There's a lot less local/random/organic community on there now.
Hm…I don’t know. It would explain why so many of the meetups seem to be more like sponsored “come check out our venue” type things (the wine tasting I did definitely was). There are some legitimate ones in there, but it took a long time to find my book club. I chalked it up to COVID. but maybe it was a change in “we’re not making any money” thinking…
I'm not sure how well this will be received on HN, but if you're looking for a meeting place with folks that generally skew toward more community integration / more vibrant social lives, and which doesn't require already knowing someone, I'd suggest picking up a sport. Granted, you'll have to contend with the stereotypical "bro" types, but there'll also be well-adjusted young professionals in a similar position as yourself, and sports naturally lend themselves toward friendship building. From personal experience, whenever I'm in a new city, I find a local basketball run and before long am going out for drinks / food / concerts with people I consider friends, and have even found roommates in this way.
Many cities also have social co-ed rec softball and volleyball leagues, often with a beer afterwards. It's a great way to meet people once a week for a low pressure activity.
I recommend a Kickball league. Less “bro” types for the most part. Although to be fair, my league had this one team that everyone hated because they were super serious. But the rest of us all got along great.
Dodgeball is another sport like this! There are very serious dodgeball teams, but generally they compete with each other and not the beer league. Even the super serious players tended to be friendly and willing to play at the same level rather than dominating. Added benefit is dodgeball is not dependent on weather.
I think looking for a sport that requires coed teams is a good way to ensure that things remain more social than competitive. (Not knocking women athletes, just noting that mixed sports tend to be about socializing.)
Reminds me of the time I went out to a draft for a softball league and got picked up as the token man. All my teammates played D2 softball together. I always thought I was a reasonably good rec league player. But that team was something else. I lasted 2 games in the field before I got made the designated hitter. If I didn’t get a home run, I was going to be replaced by a pinch runner :)
> Traveling and digital nomading is definitely on my list, the pandemic delayed the plans.
Ironically, I find this to be even more isolating. One thing is right in the name, nomad, your not making and permanent or lasting friendships. Sure, you meet a lot of people but everyone is just going on their own after. Also I find travel to not be something relatable at all to most people. Most people can't do it, and get weird about it. Its very expensive or you need to luck into a certain life style. No one is interested in seeing travel pics or talking about places ime.
I traveled a bunch in my youth and it’s definitely not a cure all for life’s meaning. It was exactly like that line from Fight Club - single serving friends. After a while it gets tiring to meet interesting people, hang out for a while and go through the topics you enjoy and feel like you connect. Then they’re or you are off to the other side of the world and that’s the end of that friendship. I did meet my wife and have a lot of fun adventures though.
Try it for a few months and you’ll likely realize that you are the common theme in your problems. It’ll be a very enjoyable time nonetheless.
> Most people can't do it, and get weird about it.
What? Definitely not my experience.
> Its very expensive or you need to luck into a certain life style.
Travel does not need to be expensive. Hostels are cheap. If you volunteer, you can even stay for free. Also many regions of the world are inexpensive.
> No one is interested in seeing travel pics or talking about places ime.
Again, not sure what kind of people you're meeting, but I haven't found that to be the case. Then again I've been traveling the last 4 years, so the type of people I meet tend to have the same interests.
Sure when I will travel I meet people interested in travel. I've gotten some cool info for futures trips from people. When I get back home, no one really cares. They're busy being broke or working high stress jobs. 40% of Americans never left the country. Of that how many do you think are just going on a cruise or a carribean resort?
I'm pretty sure you live in a bubble. None of my friends are taking more then a trip a year.
Hostels and volunteering are not for everyone. A vacation that is hard when life is hard is not appealing.
Many Americans never leave the country because the US is already pretty vast. Put Texas on a map of Europe and traveling mostly straight (with some slight detours) from the north tip to the south tip can take you through the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxemburg, France, Germany, Switzerland, and Italy[1].
There's also oceans or large distances separating it from most other countries so going anywhere besides the Caribbean islands or Canada/Mexico is going to require an often not very cheap plane flight (probably $400/person at a minimum, likely more, and roughly 2.5x that if you're wanting to go to Asia/Australia).
Also, only about 37% of Americans have passports[2], and you can go on cruises without a passport (and used to be able to go to Canada/Mexico without one, but that's changed in the last decade), and the process can take 2-3 months and $165 in fees by itself (I just checked, I'm one of those people that still haven't gotten a passport yet...would have if the pandemic didn't happen in 2020, we were planning a trip to Canada that year), so that's a bit of a deterrent as well.
Everyone lives in their own bubble. Sounds like your bubble consists of people who are either too broke for travel, more focused on their high-stress jobs, or just lack interest in travel.
I'd imagine most people here working well-paying jobs in tech living in cities like NYC/SF probably go on more than one vacation per year. In Europe, people get 1-3+ months of vacation, and it's very cheap to travel within Europe.
It's pretty sad if one doesn't spend more than 2+ weeks per year on vacation, unless one really enjoys their work that much, which I imagine probably is not the case for most employees.
Don't listen to yourself. I left for Mexico 4 months into the pandemic. Thailand is open, Philippines apparently just opened, Indonesia lets you in with a visa. Do it and don't look back. Pick a country where you can stay 6+ months if you've never traveled before. Find a good DN destination on dedicated websites, not every DN is a developer so you might meet new people just by hanging out there. Open Tinder in these new areas and start meeting people without expectations, you'll have fun.
Being well paid and able to work remotely opens up ridiculous opportunities, don't let them slip. Find some nice cafes (or even a Starbucks) and work there every day, don't stay at home ever.
- an ugly asocial DN in his 30s with out-of-my-league tastes that are sometimes fulfilled. Sent from Java, the island.
Hey a note on travelling. I met (via reddit chat) a guy who seemed quite depressed to me. He is a nomad who got out of the US 10+ years ago and has lived in several countries. I met him because he was having a rough time in my country and I thought I could help him. However after talking a bit with him it was evident that the problem was himself and not the places he had been (he basically whined about how he had been mistreated at every country he had been. He is some kind of remote web dev nomad).
The point is, you have to be good with yourself before you "escape" to a different country. Otherwise you may only find more trouble in a different language.
This is the right advice, but it's worth noting how hard this is when you're doing the software dev grind, unless you're one of those people discussed in other threads recently who manages to settle in at a company where they don't really expect much more than 2-3 hours of work per day (not judging, I miss this kind of work)
Working on yourself is a more-than-full-time job, and it can take years of work for someone who's developed so much self-loathing. Hobbies are for people who aren't constantly busy with other obligations. And if you're working in solitude in software full-time, you're going to have a hard time finding a hobby that you can just get laser-focused on, not to mention time for exercise if your hobby isn't athletic.
People aren't supposed to be happy when they're isolated -- and being happy doesn't naturally end isolation. That's absurd, and a victim-blaming mentality. (Not to imply OP is a victim.)
The isolation is because we're an atomized society. Humans are psychologically supposed to exist in stable tribes. These have been shrunk down to nuclear families in modern life.
It won't magically end his isolation, no. But, it will create an environment that is conducive to ending it. You run into opportunities every day, and it's up to you to take advantage of them, or immediately drown them in negativity.
Sorry you're taking it as dismissal and denial. It's not meant that way.
I realize there's a problem. I also realize nothing I can say will solve that problem. It's up to tenonyx to solve it. I'm not trying to solve, just trying to help show a perspective on it that one might not immediately see. Because I've been there, too.
You have to learn to like yourself before others will though, having a deep sense of self loathing, even self consciously, will put people off of you, you emanate a deep proverbial psychological stink - and it turns people away.
This. Sorry, I can't give the secret to happiness, but I can tell you to stop looking in places where you won't find it. One of those places is expecting others to give it to you when you have none to give back.
That might be a step further than is necessary. I don’t think you have to like yourself, and it’s much easier to like yourself if someone else likes you first.
However, I do agree that you need to get past self-loathing to at least self-acceptance of some kind. Mostly because self-loathing means putting your attention on yourself, and that is what makes it hard to connect with other people.
It’s ok to not have a high opinion of yourself as long as you don’t place too much importance on it, and are on with yourself.
You can choose to work and save and get a little richer every day. The mentality you describe is actually the most dangerous hurdle I found on the path to happiness.
Work is a terrible place to make friends. The incentives are all stacked against it. People at work are competitive, fearful, distrusting, political, formal, reserved, with worksonas turned up to the max. When people leave the company, the majority of the time the reason for the relationship has ceased. Try to bring people into your life through just about any other activity and you will have better results.
My former roommate who works at LinkedIn spends a lot of time hanging out with friends from work. They do things together multiple times a week. Maybe you should try getting a FAANG job and moving to SF/LA/NYC?
Also, my impression of NYC, more so than any other place I've lived, is that there is a general rejection of the idea that your lifestyle is supposed to change when you're 30.
Have you watched Harold and Maude? I'm not sure what you're expecting friendship to look like and how much you're expecting to get out of it, but maybe try to lower your expectations of others. Think about what you can do for other people, and less about what you need from someone else.
> I'm afraid though, that it'll only lead me to meeting more and more developers
Digital nomadism wouldn't do that in my experience; have done that in Bali, HK, SG, Thai, for a while in China when it was more open etc; I met tons of people and while a few said they were programmers, they were not actually programmers (0 experience, bit of html); most were people (of all races/sexes/ages) that were 'doing their own startup' (99%+ horrible ideas; I have been a tech advisor in a few incubators and these would not pass anywhere, but that's not the point) or writing their first book. But they were mostly there for the freedom; the startup/book thing is more of an excuse to be on nice beaches, forest hikes etc. So it's very social.
The coworking places I found there also had close to 0 devs in them; worse, they all wanted me to 'jump in' (I did a few times which was not smart in hindsight).
Many of these people are actively social, attractive and easy to meet up with for drinks, food, sports, walks, etc etc. And then maybe your new startup so you can do that forever.
I had to leave at the start of covid because my income source was at risk and I would have been leaving in 2020 anyway, but as far as I can tell the majority of people I knew working remotely in Bali are still there or if not have just moved on to somewhere new and exciting.
In general young fun people have done their best to keep having fun despite anti covid restrictions, with the boring, depressed inside loners being the ones demanding everyone stay boring and depressed inside. You're going to find it hard to fit in with people different from you if you're going to be coming to them with values that go against their existence.
Developers were a minority. Hell, people with jobs were a minority.
I was going to comment that it didn't sound like you liked yourself much, but you admit as much which is really hard to do. Kudos. Been there, done that. I also noticed when not liking yourself, you tend to even take it out on other people...which may explain that comment somewhat.
My advice is generic but important... you've -got- to like yourself. If you see nothing in yourself, it's like... contagious, and people won't either. I'd wager like 75% of being approachable and likable is confidence.
In short, figure out what you can do self improvement wise to really like yourself first, to gain confidence, then move on to the other stuff people are mentioning.
I echo those suggesting working on yourself. Maybe therapy might be a good option?
I went through a good three years in NYC where I was completely alone, isolated. I tried to branch out, but nothing really stuck until I lucked on a group of friends who I’ve had now for over 5 years.
Sometimes you have to have patience and be content with waiting. The harder you force it, the slower it will come. Sometimes you have to wait years, life does not move on your schedule. In the meantime, you can control working on yourself.
Join a gym that has group exercise classes, like Orange Theory. You’ll find a new friend group, and unless you’re in the Bay Area, they’re unlikely to all be programmers. Plus exercise is always good for your well being.
Digital nomads are I've met are only about 5% devs in my experience. A lot of would be digital influencers and marketers. I rather liked Canggu Bali pre pandemic though I think it's still mostly closed at the moment. Pretty people/buildings/scenery. Maybe a bit shallow.
I’m in Thailand in the wintertime and for me it’s hard to find other devs that really code/architect medium to big sized software. I guess you can find Wordpress/Web-Devs everywhere though.
> you can't treat depression by hanging out with other depressed people
I disagree, a sense of shared suffering can be really helpful in building close and meaningful friendships. Connecting with another miserable person who understood what I was going through - and plotting with them about what each of us could do to try to change things - was one of the key things in getting me through one of the most depressed periods of my life.
> Meetups in my area were also only tech-related.
No book clubs or discussion groups or political action or volunteer groups? Maybe you need to move; there should be a lot more than tech going on in any decent-sized city. Even if it's such a tech-focused area that lots of the attendees happen to work in tech, you'll see other facets of them at those events; people have passions outside of their careers.
Not sure why this is downvoted. It is well documented that the most demanding activities lead to the strongest and most enduring relationships. War is the most extreme obvious example, but at college students who participate in demanding sports or band or those competitive business groups have far richer social lives in general than those who join casual clubs. In adulthood careers like medicine where people do gruelling shift work together results in again in more enduring and close bonds than in your usual 9 to 5.
It is perhaps an inconvenient truth but share suffering and struggle is the "secret" here. Why do you think childhood friendships are generally the closest ones a person will have? In part because of the intense earnest struggle to figure things out. Which is what brings people together far more effectively than shared happiness or some vague feeling of social dissatisfaction.
This is the total opposite of what you should do. Why would you uproot yourself to meet a bunch of transient people you'll never see again, or if you do it's once per year because they live across the world, when you're explicitly lonely and looking for friends? Those meetings are so pointless compared to cultivating relationships in a permanent place.
OP needs to put down roots in some place he likes and then start finding people he can hang out with regularly. If you do it right, you'll know the cashiers where you shop and the tailor and the butcher and etc. This is how you develop your social life, not by the equivalent of mindless scrolling but for irl socializing.
Just wanted to second the traveling and staying at Airbnbs: if you just book a "room" with locals (as opposed to the full place), it's a great way to meet (usually) open minded people with a different culture that can completely reset your expectations of what life is or should be.
At the risk of going off-topic, I'm a little taken aback by how we're all still in the middle of a global pandemic. Vaccines don't provide bulletproof immunity and aren't intended to be a license to gather in groups, etc., without precautions.
From that description, your neighbors don't sound particularly appealing. What's there to be envious of re: that?
You can cast your disapproval at what those neighbors are doing, and it might even be perfectly valid (I'd agree with you). It does absolutely nothing to quell that envy that OP is feeling, though - I know the feeling well, and I know many of my friends feel the same way.
This is a long tail of the whole pandemic that doesn't really get discussed.
So...people like you? you sound really judgemental man.
Since you have no friends(so nothing to hold you where you are, right?), and apparently a good source of income, I'd advise you to go remote, travel, try digital nomadism, go to meetups, meet other travelers, maybe try coworking spaces? hacker houses/airbnbs with people from lots of different places?