I don’t need a reason why to self host, I need nice, clear, up-to-date tutorials on how to self host various services.
Self hosting should be easy enough for everyday people. Perhaps preconfigured servers that treat services just like apps. Once I have a server setup, I should be able to install (and uninstall) services in a single click. The OS can handle permissions and containers.
There are numerous projects which have attempted to create this.
https://sandstorm.io/ was the biggest one but as far as I can tell its largely unmaintained and most of the apps are outdated
https://yunohost.org/ probably has the best "just works" experience but I didn't like that it wasn't using any kind of containerization which has caused them issues with shared libraries like PHP being difficult to update. As well as security concerns about one insecure app giving access to the whole server.
Ultimately the problem is just extremely difficult / high maintenance. And no one wants to pay for this work.
Sandstorm is in need of more coders to help maintain and update apps, but it's not abandoned. I use it, both personally and professionally.
It results in a better experience for end-users because applications are actually sandboxed. This (mercifully) means that any security issues in the out-of-date applications does not become a cause for panic. The downside is that packaging those applications is not trivial.
I always check for yunohost on these self-hosting threads. Standing up a yunohost on my raspberry pie has been on my to-do list for a long time.
Unfortunately their default for my raspberry pie didn't "just work" on the Saturday evening I tried it. It was my first foray with that raspberry pie, so installed a different server OS and spent the rest of the evening setting up a basic server for an HTML file and learning more about SSH. That was my experience as a non-IT engineer. I'd be interested in other people's experiences using yunohost (or sandstorm for that matter).
Maybe the solution isn't to make an idiot-proof stack of tech. Maybe we need a central repo of tutorials and how-tos so that any idiot could self host? Something better than the scattered YouTubes and blogs I remember seeing when I Googled after this.
I think we need more than tutorials. The actual software is just harder to host than it needs to be. What we need is some kind of standard where a tool can just automatically plug it in to the stack, start up the docker container, route nginx in, setup certificates automatically, set up SSO automatically in a standard way, Backup the data in a standard way, etc.
These 1 click install services like yuno host achieve it through huge amounts of work per app and patches over upstream.
Problem is its a monster of a job that requires upstream projects to be onboard and ultimately most of these tools are meant for enterprises to run who just have a dedicated ops person so complexity and maintenance are less of an issue.
It's kinda sad that something like yunohost is still the best "just working"-solution we have at the moment. I tested it some weeks ago for a homelab-server, and holy crap was this a poor experience.
But the general problem with those projects is, they all are packaging their own apps, and most of those have a very low number available. Some of thise apps are outdated, or are not well tested. It's quite strange that we have dozens of linux-distributions, each with thousand of packages, yet we have no good solution that actually works well enough.
You either have solutions which are hiding everything in a tanglement which is hard to understand, or you must do all the work yourself, or you live with the in-betweens which offer only a handful of apps. Maybe in another 20 years we have something workable on all levels...
> the best "just works" experience but I didn't like that it wasn't using any kind of containerization which has caused them issues with shared libraries like PHP being difficult to update. As well as security concerns about one insecure app giving access to the whole server.
imo the reproducability guarantees of docker aren't enough and domething like NixOS is needed.
I am with you. I think the future is something like Umbrel[1].
Because frankly, I would rather have the server running on a little device in my home than having to mess around with things like SSH and a VPS. An app that is running on a little computer in my house is both more understandable and easier for me to maintain.
> How can I uninstall the Bitcoin and Lightning node?
> Currently, Umbrel installs a Bitcoin and Lightning node by default and it is not possible to remove it. Over the coming weeks, we’ll migrate the Bitcoin and Lightning node to the Umbrel App Store and your Umbrel would then start from a clean slate.
Docker containers don't work for most self hosted solutions, since most self hosted OSes are security focused, and use FreeBSD, instead of Linux, in order to get away from some security vulnerabilities. Docker is a pretty large security vulnerability.
It's better than windows, sure - but I think everyone would agree that shouldn't be the bar.
It's not as easy as "just run the docker image". Maybe it is if you just want to run a single one. But as soon as you want to run multiple it becomes a very complex job of configuring nginx and lets encrypt. It took me several hours to work out how to host nextcloud and get the nginx config working.
Wow. Thanks for that insight. I went the middle ground and am using a shared hosting provider with great tutorials on how to get things running.
Nextcloud was 5 minutes (or 15 if one includes setting up ssh key in the web frontend for my account). WordPress was 3 minutes, Matomo also 5 including configuration.
I know that I am using a central service and am not self hosting. But for > 13 years this setup "just works".
I had a masquerading server at home once (back in the early 2000s) and updating, securing and just maintaining it was a hassle.
So to me the current setup is stable, mostly secure (and more secure than I could make it) and balances my needs for control and stability and ease of use quite well.
I'm guessing the "why" eventually can trigger experts to craft mechanism and associated tutorials/docs to show the "how". That is, i think people should understand the compelling reasons why self-hosting could be important...and maybe there will be much more incentive to get experts to create more things - and easier - for lay people to adopt them...For example, if tons more people start demanding that easier self hosting options exist (both mechanism AND how to docs), then we would have many more entities - both commercial and private - incentivized to generate better/easier on-ramsp for self hosting. But of course, you're right that ultimately, eventually, the "how" to get to such a nirvana is essential too. That is my guess anyway.
Unraid can do something extremely similar to this. There's a plugin that provides a repository of Community Applications that are essentially docker configuration templates designed specifically for Unraid. You can search for say, HomeAssistant and install it with just a few clicks.
Unraid is great, but be warned, it can spiral out of control. I started with unraid and a gazillion containers, now I have that, 2 mini PCs, and some networking equipment that I never thought I'd want or need. It's a lot of fun.
Self hosting should be easy enough for everyday people. Perhaps preconfigured servers that treat services just like apps. Once I have a server setup, I should be able to install (and uninstall) services in a single click. The OS can handle permissions and containers.