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Depends on the company, of course (and I've no idea how it works at Facebook), but some companies make their EMs out of ICs (much like Pokemon, I assume touching a special rock is required to effect the evolution) and it's somewhat common for EMs to re-IC-ify on their own anyway.


When the EM becomes an IC, how does this help the team grow their own skills and not get distracted by problems the EM should be moving out of their way?

When the EM is an IC, what stops them from either interfering with small stuff (I had an EM -- back then we called them "managers" -- stop us for a week trying to determine whether we should use List or Vector in Scala. Nobody was happy) or taking the big interesting problems for themselves?


> When the EM becomes an IC, how does this help the team grow their own skills and not get distracted by problems the EM should be moving out of their way?

Well, generally the team would still have an EM, just not that EM.

> When the EM is an IC, what stops them from either interfering with small stuff

What stops any IC doing that?


> Well, generally the team would still have an EM, just not that EM

If there is an EM role, I don't see the problem. I took TFA to mean "become an EM who also codes".

> What stops any IC doing that?

Nothing, but an IC has by definition time to tackle big problems. Also, other ICs are their peers. An EM+IC has no time to tackle big problems -- or if they do, then they are neglecting their management role -- and so by default will tend to focus on nitpicking or small tasks. Tasks that are best done by junior level ICs.


> I took TFA to mean "become an EM who also codes".

I don't _think_ that's what they're saying. I read it as "we have too many EMs; would some EMs like to un-EM, please?


Oh. In that case I misunderstood TFA. Wouldn't be the first time! In that case, I agree with you: no problem with an EM going back to an IC role.


I don’t really understand the first question, but do you mean that the capacity of an EM to spend time on growing team skills is reduced? There is a limited amount of time a manager can spend on that. If it’s a small team, then they could do a good job at it whilst doing small bits on the side.

For the 2nd, I imagine that if you are a manager and an IC on the side, then you don’t have the time to spend on big projects. It’s more likely you’ll be filling in gaps or doing the uninteresting but necessary work. There’s nothing stopping you from attempting to hoard the interesting projects, but then your performance on either role or both will likely suffer. That’s not really a new failure mode - any manager can be bad.

As a manager + IC, you shouldn’t be leading projects, since that’s a useful skill for your reports to develop. I guess there may be exceptions if your team is particularly junior. Ideally, if you are not micromanaging, you only participate on a big project if required or asked, not because you want to. Your main role is the people management side and to help with planning, prioritisation and communication.


> do you mean that the capacity of an EM to spend time on growing team skills is reduced? There is a limited amount of time a manager can spend on that. If it’s a small team, then they could do a good job at it whilst doing small bits on the side.

Yes, that's part of what I mean (but also: dealing with red tape, bureaucracy, and removing impediments) and no, the amount of time that can be used for this is basically unlimited: it's a full time job. "Small bits on the side" is not a good use of a senior IC, that's for the more junior members of the team.

Also, playing both roles is less than ideal, see: http://blogs.newardassociates.com/blog/2023/player-coach-fal...

> That’s not really a new failure mode - any manager can be bad.

Agreed that any manager can be bad, but I contend that this is a new failure mode driven by two conflicting goals.


I don’t think you treat the team manager as a senior IC. You treat them as a mid-level IC with a part-time job. If you are a manager you can’t also be considered a full-time senior IC (except in very specific cases, which should be transitionary) for the purposes of work allocation, because you can’t dedicate your full time to the job.

I don’t think management is unlimited work, at least not always. There are a fixed set of people on the team doing a fixed number of things who can only grow at a fixed rate. I agree that it could be a full time job or more, but I think that depends on the specifics. Obviously managers shouldn’t be forced to be ICs in all situations. If management is taking up all your time, you can retract from the IC pool. However, I think it’s valuable to consider and push for organisational changes to allow yourself to enter the IC pool again (maybe handing off some responsibilities to a new team etc.).

> failure mode driven by two conflicting goals

Again, I think this strongly depends on how you allocate yourself. There is room for a pre-emptible IC, that is not always available. However, it’s situation dependent whether this is useful or not. The conflicting goals theory only applies if you try and optimise for both. Your IC performance can suffer, whilst still being a net positive, again depending on the specific situation. That’s kinda upto you as a manager to quantify though. The article is more good advice on how not to approach this dual situation. If you know how to prioritise being a manager though, the points don’t apply.

On the flip side, sometimes your management performance HAS to suffer to meet critical deadlines because the entirety of the normal IC pool has other critical deadlines. It’s also upto you to avoid these situations, and if they happen then strongly push back on your leadership to prevent them happening again.

Your primary goal as a manager is to ensure team productivity and deadlines. If you can’t recognise that you are a detriment and step back (or at the very least step back when you get feedback from others who do), then that suggests that other aspects of your management are lacking as well, so it seems like the same failure mode.

The benefit to keeping yourself in the IC pool is that you can keep your skills at least slightly fresh. Even if you are no longer a full senior IC, not having any technical skills means an inability to make technical judgements if required.


Thank you for your reply.

All I can say is that in my experience I've only witnessed (and on occasions been, sadly) the dysfunctional kind of EM+IC. I've never witnessed it working well, which is what I'm basing my objections on.

The best managers I had were full-time managers (with an engineering background, which meant they understood the technical constraints); the worst managers I've had were either 100% non-technical, or EM+IC roles which just couldn't keep their paws away from coding.

My 2 cents, anyway.


Yeah, there’s definitely room for error. I just don’t think the idea should be discounted in all situations :)


Their manager should be keeping an eye on them. That's why you have "middle management."


I thought we wanted to get rid of layers of management?


This is effectively demoting and laying off middle management.

These SDMs won't be an IC _and_ manager. These SDMs are demoted.


Eh, not necessarily demoted; many companies, and I'd assume Facebook, would have IC levels parallel to their EM levels. They might be looking at... sidemotion?


> would have IC levels parallel to their EM levels. They might be looking at... sidemotion

Sure. Many companies do this too. Like Senior Engineer at the level of Engineering Manager and Staff at the level of Senior Engineer Manager.

They don't have direct report and they still write code.

Same payband and leveling but different job function.

But at the end of the day, the ICs still have to "report" to Management: Senior Engineer even if they have same payband and leveling still have to report to an actual Manager.


Well, sure, but in a company of any size managers also have to report to managers; it's managers all the way up.


> When the EM becomes an IC, how does this help the team grow their own skills and not get distracted by problems the EM should be moving out of their way?

Meta EMs do people-management only, which neatly side-steps interference on tech issues.




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