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Probiotic blocks staph bacteria from colonizing people (nih.gov)
236 points by gardenfelder on Feb 8, 2023 | hide | past | favorite | 76 comments


The MB40 strain appears to be this one:

>BIO-CAT, Inc. -- a Virginia-based biotech company specializing in breakthrough enzyme product development -- has announced a global partnership with Kerry, the Taste & Nutrition company and their BIO-CAT Microbials, LLC probiotic products division. Effective June 2021, Kerry will lead the sales, marketing, and distribution of BIO-CAT's proprietary probiotic strain, OPTI-BIOME MB40®.

>OPTI-BIOME MB40® (Bacillus subtilis ATCC122264) is a non-GMO, highly-stable probiotic strain that the company says is an ideal ingredient for a wide array of dietary supplements and other related uses.

Source: https://www.biospace.com/article/releases/bio-cat-announces-...


… non-GMO? How do you manage that? Is a culture considered non-GMO as long as you’re just pipetting colonies around and hoping for the them to be stressed the right way to evolve something useful?


Well, otherwise just about every plant and animal we use in agriculture would be GMO for the last 1000 years.


Any organism we bred is genetically modified by definition. That's why "transgenic" is a much more accurate term that we should be using.


I think this is a failure to recognize the distinction between having modified genetics, and having been genetically modified.


Yep.


I am still upset uBiome turned out to be up there with FTX and Theranos. I had a a small sample set going and would have been super interested to have that over decades or spot check what this MB40 looks like after 6month in me in particular. Seems like such a need for citizen science to generate enough data to look for patterns across populations of both us and the mirobio.


There are other poop-testing labs, if poop-testing is what you're after.


Trick is to find a testing lab that doesn't sell probiotics. American Gut Health used to be that lab, but they're too busy sequencing Covid now. Hope they get back into the game.


That's crazy, I was actually diagnosed with this about 3 days ago - it's living on my skin and I went to the doctor because an area of my skin was visibly red and smelling "fleshy" according to the doctor. Currently on antibiotics that I wasn't too fond of taking but after seeing this, will probably be more aggressive with it.


Please take Staph seriously, it will kill you if you let it. Keep a track of where your skin is red and if it spreads a lot you should go to a hospital and get IV antibiotics. Your doctor can help with all of this but the short of it is, take it seriously.


Yup. Iv antibiotics are way more tolerable than pills. I was put on three days of morning iv treatment few years ago because of an infection. Iv days were great. I sat in the er for an hour and went to work as normal. Then they switched me to a week of pills ... i barely left the bathroom for 10 days. Do not fear the iv needle.


Depends on what you mean by "tolerable". Oral antibiotics leave you on the toilet because they go to the gut. The method of action doesn't change the systemic affects though.

If anything, oral antibiotics are more tolerated by the body because half of them are eaten by stomach acid. With an IV, you're putting your kidneys to work.


Thanks, I am - after reading this article also ordered "Jarrow Formulas" probiotic with this MB40 strain.


Looks like we are looking for something containing Bacillus subtilis ATCC122264? I'm not seeing anything with "MB40"

Thanks



Link?


This medpagetoday article implies that the supplement from SuperSmart was used (from the photo).

I don't see specific mention of MB40 on the packaging, but Walmart sells this for under $20.

https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/generalinfect...

For $16, I'll gamble that it will help.

https://us.supersmart.com/en/shop/immune-system/bacillus-sub...


MedPageToday just looked up any product with B. subtilis in it. There is no reason to believe that the study used this brand, or that this product contains the strain under study.


where did you find that? im only seeing jarrow with the DE111 strain


The University of Iowa published new surgical guidelines some time ago for eliminating nasal staph prior to surgeries.

Many surgical patients with staph complications actually infected themselves, and did not acquire their strains from their hospital surroundings.

My coworker lost a leg to an infection in 2008 after a joint replacement. It is unfortunate that this procedure was not in place at that time.

https://now.uiowa.edu/2013/06/be-gone-bacteria


There's a lot of work in decolonization right now, either with competing bacteria (like the parent article) or with various decolonizing agents.

"Many surgical patients with staph complications actually infected themselves, and did not acquire their strains from their hospital surroundings."

Community acquired Staph is a huge thing. The number of people who get infected from yoga mats, scrapes and cuts playing sports, etc. is huge. The NFL had a problem in locker rooms too a few years back.


I knew someone who got it on a hand, then it started spreading fast in a single line, then he was rushed to the hospital and ended up with all hands and legs amputated. Don't underestimate it.


S. Aureus brought me into hospital for a complete month. Infection in my hip. Nobody knows how it came in. I was 39 years old at this time, that's why I am still alive. I had to take 3 variants of antibiotics at once for 4 months, which killed my liver. Luckily too, the liver could regenerate itself after the treatment. :) Amazing bio device this organ is. The pain killers were the good part. :-P This is a damn sort of bacteria. But in my understanding, almost everybody has some colonies on their skin. So don't panic, but don't be to lax with it.


Spencer's Gel is actually surprisingly good at killing S. Aureus.

Highly recommend. Works fast too.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B079S1MVWK?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_...


I finally ordered this after seeing it recommended multiple times for this purpose. Does anyone have first-hand experience with it?

I have a recurrent impetigo infection on my face stemming from dry skin / eczema, with my partner as a possible source of re-infection. I'm hoping this product will make it a less common occurrence, as it's quite debilitating and has persisted for over half a year. The dermatologists I've seen have been of little assistance, only presenting me with drug-based treatments (monthly injections, immunosuppressants) and no advice for treating the root cause.

Topical antibiotics seem to be the only temporary solution for now, as systemic antibiotics seem to have no effect.


If it's on your skin, what's the advantage of using this over, say, 50% isopropyl alcohol?


A strain which can cause necrosis in a healthy individual goes under your skin, where not enough alcohol can penetrate.

Again: most strains of S. aureus can not cause a serious infection in someone healthy. Antibiotic abuse drives the selective pressure towards resistant strains.


What about some phage therapy https://mybacteriophage.net/en-us/collections/bacteriophages... . It's made in Georgia in company that researches phage therapy for past few decades


I'm not an expert here, but I think part of the selling point of phages is their specificity in targeting a particular bacterial strain, and then having the capacity to co-evolve with bacteria to that might otherwise develop immunity to a particular compound. I'd assume this is a valid approach, but probably relies on having a phage "in stock" that targets the particular strain of staph.

By contrast, a probiotic is sort of an ecological approach. Rather than targeting the staph directly, you just introduce something benign that competes with the staphylococcus, preventing it from dominating the environment (i.e. overwhelming your body).

I have an on again off again relationship with culturing kefir. Regular consumption of kefir produced from healthy cultures definitely feels like an immunity shield from food poisoning. I like to imagine that any pathogenic bacteria that find their way into my gut are roughed up by the locals.


those phages are specifically targeting staph infection. this company has a few "off the shelf" ready compounds for sale. given that parent has today problem with staph, priority I think will be to treat it with something that is available (as he is currently trying with antibiotics) and not with probiotics of specific strain that seems to be unobtanium as of now


Sure, if they have an in-stock phage that targets his particular strain of staph, why not?

But the Bacillus subtilis also appears to be readily available. I think if I were faced with a potentially life-threatening staph infection, I'd happily do all of the above: antibiotics, probiotics, and sure, phages too. The latter two seem like low risk things to try (EDIT: but I'd probably at least run the idea past my doc)


I met someone with Crohn's disease who swears by the lactic acid bacteria in sour cream to help relieve their symptoms. Apparently it is only certain brands, as the probiotic is added back in after pasteurization.


What brands/products?


The only one I know about is Nancy’s, but I think there’s a few of them. The key is to look for "live probiotics" on the label.



Anecdotally, I agree that Nancy's sits different in the stomach (in a good way, in moderation).

I like it after at least a couple weeks in the fridge.


I'm a bit concerned that they don't mention a particular strain of B. Subtilis.

There are hundreds of documented strains, and they don't all eat/produce the same things (at least not in the same ratios)

Some have been documented to reduce inflammation and restore tight-junction function in epithelial walls (where other strains did not).

Others have been shown to reverse the accumulation of α-synuclein. That has been implicated as a cause or symptom of Parkinson's disease.


The reference paper says it's MB40: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36646104/


Are you saying that some are good and some are bad strains?


like many, many bacteria, b.subtilis can infect you in bad ways, particularly if you are immune-compromised. in general, it is probably not a good idea to mess with your body's microfauna, which normally balances itself, unless you have a patent infection, in which case you want antibiotics.


I really worried about this on a hospitalization earlier this year when I was given so much antibiotic that my gut was seemingly completely reset to the null state.*

That is, I was quite worried that something unpleasant would take it as an invitation to colonize my gut instead, so I ate a LOT of live culture yoghurt. Quite unpleasant when you can't digest anything properly (I'll spare the details) but I rapidly recolonized my gut and restored things to working order.

The disturbing sequela was that my interest in certain foods after this process was quite different from my interest before I was sick. It makes me wonder if I ever wanted a donut (or coffee) or if it was some other species signalling to my brain that I wanted to eat such a thing. Nowadays I have little interest in such things.

* surely not reset completely to 0. And while I didn't want that to happen I am super glad I got those antibiotics!


That’s an interesting experience, and I’m glad it worked out for you!

I had a really bad infection for a couple weeks after some food poisoning, in and out of the hospital. After that point and recovering with lingering effects for a couple years, my diet changed quite a bit as well. Not sure if for similar reasons, but gravitated away from previous foods/habits.


B. subtilis is commonly used to make natto from soybeans as well, giving it sticky, weblike strands, in case anyone was interested in getting more of the probiotic.


It's a different strain though. The strains differ so much that it's difficult to assume that they function the same way.


I never heard of natto, which is kind of surprising considering I've been vegan for most of my life. This seems like the type of thing that vegans would be into. Anyway, looks disgusting and NSFW


Looks like a bowl of snot. I so have to make this for my kids!


It's very much an acquired taste for most people. I wouldn't say I love it, but am mildly positive towards it.


It smells like dirty wet socks you’ve forgotten to wash too. But it tastes ok, even … nice?

It’s an acquired taste for sure.


The natto you get from US Japanese groceries doesn't smell like anything to me. I've always wondered if it's me or them who's wrong considering how people usually complain about it. It does have an unpleasant texture, but the taste is ok if you add the mustard pack.


Also contains the highest amount of Vitamin K2, good for bone health.


Specifically, the MK7 form, the best kind (more bioavailable for your bones compared to MK4)


Natto. It’s sort of like the Japanese version of Vegemite. People who grow up with it, eat it for breakfast. Everyone else in the world thinks you are insane.


I take it in supplement form. A few different formulas actually. That mitigates any taste.


Only problem: You must enjoy natto.


Add yellow mustard and soy sauce.

It's still an acquired taste.


Natto with dashitsuyu sauce isn't too bad. Still not something I'd gobble down, but maybe as a side dish.


Please does anyone know where to buy this strand? Many of us need to replicate this study. I cannot find this strain for sale by itself. Only a few products with it combine with others and overall a very low dose of the mb40. Study shows 10 billion CFU


I listened to a piece on NPR the other day about how they discovered a medieval cure for staph that was very effective. They're still trying to figure out the how and why but it was fascinating.

https://radiolab.org/episodes/best-medicine


> I listened to a piece on NPR

Friendly correction: Radiolab is a production of (my former client) WNYC, not NPR.

My sense is that the creative freedom and energy at WNYC is substantially different than in the NPR editorial process.


Thank you for explaining. But also: Many NPR stations air Radiolab, and that is where I, and probably GP, hear it.


What I'm suggesting is that we step back from referring to our public radio stations - even NPR member and associate stations - as "NPR stations" (with perhaps exceptions for the regional bureaus and arguably WAMU) and instead think of them as a decentralized network of content production.

If you are listening to Radiolab on KQED or WBUR, then NPR had little to do with it (and, I argue, it shows! In a good way!).

Many local public radio stations are member stations of both NPR and PRX, but we never hear people call them "PRX stations". Why? I think the answer is almost certainly because the NPR and CPB fact sheets and on-air station identifications refer to them that way.

But nearly all of the best programs that are distributed to our local public radio stations are actually being ground out by energetic, lesser-known producers and journalists at much smaller local radio stations, with which they identify much more strongly than they identify with a particular syndicator.

If you like Radiolab, understand how the unique culture at WNYC creates a show like that, and consider that your esteem for public radio may be more nuanced than NPR.


Thanks for the clarification. I just think of my local radio as "NPR" since it's about 90% of the daytime content. TBH I thought Radiolab was independently produced but that NPR had picked it up instead of my local station putting it next to NPR content.

Radiolab is definitely one of my favorite radio shows though. The first time I heard it, it was the internal monologue of somebody having an existential crisis on an airline, which was equally bizarre and hysterical.


Do you mind if I ask which is your local / most frequently listened-to station?


I got the notion you work in radio. I'm in range of KLCC or a station which rebroadcasts it.


Awesome! I love KLCC. Oregon has great public radio, with KOPB of course being super popular, but I think the smaller KLCC is just as good. Also, don't sleep on KBOO in Portland.

As for the notion that I work in radio: I have flirted with radio, including a stint at my college radio station and a one-year contract at WNYC, which was a formative part of my career for sure. But I work in cryptography at the moment, and I'm working on pushing boundaries regarding publishing of media via blockchain tech in the hopes that the spirit of public radio can live on in a new economy.

So let's look at today's schedule for KLCC and assess the degree to which it is an "NPR station":

* PRX Remix - a fun, easy, and affordable way to keep your station interesting. I actually wrote some of the syndication code that became this project during my time at WNYC. I have no idea whether it's still in use. ~Not NPR~

5:00 AM Weekend Edition Saturday - as NPR as it gets. I believe this is recorded and produced at the new NPR headquarters in Washington DC. 10:00 AM Wait Wait... Don't Tell Me! - Yep, also NPR. And actually, this show exemplifies the kind of annoying, on-the-nose content that sometimes bugs me about NPR. But the production quality is solid, I'll give it that.

11:00 AM Live Wire - I assume this is the podcast. Very much ~Not NPR~, this podcast is a great example of a small group of passionate radio artists punching way above their weight.

12:00 PM This American Life - I suspect that many people think that this show is NPR because of the cadence, production value, and subject matter, but it isn't. This show is recorded and produced at WBEZ and syndicated via PRX. If I may dare suggest: it seems to me that this show is quite proud of being ~Not NPR~

1:00 PM Radiolab - Quintessential WNYC, produced in the bullpen on the 9th floor of the WNYC HQ in Hudson Square, NYC, with plenty of high-quality cannabis and kickass coffee from the nearby La Colombe or Ground Support. Many aspiring producers and audio techs have been given a shot over the years, and no two segments sound quite alike. ~Not NPR~

2:00 PM Travel with Rick Steves - An unusual but perhaps trailblazing phenomenon, this show is engineered, produced, _and_ distributed by Steves and his friends personally in a studio they built specifically for this show. Obviously Rick does amazing work. ~Not NPR~

3:00 PM Eye 5 - KLCC local content, coming to you over the air right from your neck of the woods. No syndication needed. ~Not NPR~

5:00 PM All Things Considered - The only show on this schedule that's even more central to NPR than Weekend Edition. 6:00 PM All Songs Considered - Also NPR. 6:30 PM Alt.Latino - Also NPR.

7:00 PM Dead Air - Another KLCC local show. I might listen in. :-) 9:00 PM Folk Alley - Similar format to Live Wire, Folk Alley produces both a full-time stream and a curated and narrated show, distributed by PRX. ~Not NPR~ 11:00 PM PRX Remix - ~Not NPR~

So, the only parts of today's schedule that make KLCC an "NPR Station" is the morning content from 5-10 and the evening content from 5-6:30. Other than those hours, it looks like they have worked very hard to put together an enriching and diverse schedule which includes syndicated content, independent content, and local content.

I'd say KLCC is much bigger than an outlet for accessing NPR, and deserves recognition and funding consistent with the work that they put in from their comparatively small operation and studio.


This seems to be commonly available in many over-the-counter daily probiotic pills and gummies.


Which products contain the correct strain (Bacillus subtilis ATCC122264)?


I noticed it on the Culturelle Gummies but now see you and others pointing out that this study refers to a particular strain which is different than the gummies.


to be honest, i never knew that staph could colonise the gut, to any great extent. certainly, back when i was a medical microbiologist, we never looked for them there, and we never saw any problems with it there.

generally, staph is a commensal on skin and other surface tissues. you will never get rid of it there. problems come when it makes its way into things like surgical wounds.


Anyone know somewhere you can buy the strain mentioned (OPTI-BIOME MB40 Bacillus subtilis) in the UK?


Huge news if this turns out to be something that people can take over the counter to prevent staph. I've shared this with some jiu jitsu friends and hopefully its true and could bring down the rate of infections at gyms.


I wonder were you find these beneficial probiotics/strains naturally.


This is right up my alley, for me.

I have been suffering from a staph infection on the scalp for the last decade. I am colonized, and every time I do a cycle on Doxycycline I am clean for 4-5 days and it's back... The symptoms are puss filled boils on the head, sometimes bloody. Sometimes known as folliculitis.

I believe I am colonized, but I also believe my cat is also infected and we mutually retransmit it to each other as we share pillows.

It all started in the nose 10 years ago, unlocked all sorts of issues and permanently damaged it. Then it spread to the scalp. It seriously reduced my QoL and made visits to a barber a challenge. It increased my hair shedding aka more prone to balding.


Silly question, but do you supplement Zinc? I've had something similar in yong age. I think it was fixed by Immune globulin injection. Yeah, I know it's strange, but for some reason it worked. Lately I've noticed that this stuff can come back if my immune system depressed. Sleep + Zinc usually helps.


Well I would say not directly, some of my supplements have Zinc, but that is as far as it went.

I and my immediately family, all of suffer from forms of Thalassemia ranging from mild, to severe. I have a form called Beta Thalassemia Minor, if it affects my immune system.




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