What does this have to do with Israel? Why are you censoring Israel and Jewish? How does the removal of this content from the FTC mean citizens are not allowed to critique monopolies? I dislike this administration as much as the next guy but your comment isn't making much sense in my head
My point was related to free speech, and these incidents are all infringing on it. Unless you don't consider censorship in the removal of these blogs, or similar incidents, as attacks on free speech. I am censoring it to protect myself from repercussions. You might not be paying attention...
Sure, there are a lot of concerning happenings related to free speech as of late. This particular article isn't one. The removal of content from a government website isn't in-of-itself a free speech issue
I don't think they made the point particularly well but I do understand their frustration. Semi-professional pedants can pare away context until each individual issue is isolated, unrelated to all the other problems, and so individually not that big a deal.
But The Problem here is a powerful far right movement has seized control of the american government and is dismantling all the parts of it that don't serve their neosegregationist policy goals, while they use anything they can as a weapon against their enemies.
Those other problems they mentioned are also this problem. There's really only one problem, though it is a very large one. But talking about each of these details as if they are somehow smaller problems that can be solved independently is foolish.
Except these are blog posts. They are not on the for-front of the gov. website. Why remove old posts that are critical of these companies? Why now? I truly believe those who are hit with censorship can look at it dead in the eye and attempt to rationalize it. Clearly the cited companies have donated to the current admin. And very clearly, actions like these are a testament to how far these donations got them. Here's a tip. I agree there are many incidents right now that are concerning. And perhaps, an isolated incident like this would not be of concern in any other time. But we are living in difficult times, and my point stands, given these incidents are not isolated. You cannot cherry pick issues you agree with and others you disagree with. If you are not concerned by all of these incidents, then your moral compass might be very different from mine.
Yes, I'm 100% in agreement that this is a small part in an incredibly concerning wave of information censorship, free speech infringements, ect. I was just pressing to see that connection made :)
I might have gone too far off. I apologize, taking my anger on here is not constructive. I am just dumbfounded at some of the dots that are connecting, which are making me feel very uneasy. You are right, that if this was but an isolated incident, free speech would not be at stake. But not even 2 months into this administration, and some very concerning incidents made me uneasy.
>I am censoring it to protect myself from repercussions. You might not be paying attention...
Just a note that if everyone here knows you mean Israel when you type "Isra-l" (and Jewish when you type "Jewi-sh"), so does whoever you believe to be protecting yourself from.
Israel really wants the whole world to conflate "Israeli", "Jewish" and "Zionist", but it is a lie.
Is there data to support that it is a lie? I don't personally know any Jews who are unsympathetic to Palestinians, but the percentage of Jews who are anti-zionist must be tiny. That makes sense, given the problems Jews had before Israel existed (like 1/3 dying in WWII)
It depends on how strongly you interpret “zionism”.
It’s true “Israel should be a country” has broad support. But a majority of Jewish people oppose the current government, and a majority say Israel is not essential to Jewish identity.
It just seems a bit delusional to justify strong anti-zionism by saying it's 'orthogonal' (horrible word) from Judaism.
It's true the concepts are orthogonal, but in the real world, if someone is railing against zionists, they implicate the vast majority of jews.
That isn't necessarily a problem (if a view is wrong, it's wrong whether one person or 1000 people hold it) but it's Israel/Palestine... people get so angry and use rhetoric about 'zionists' that sounds ugly - at least, if one remembers the term applies to most of the world's jews.
Those stats seem correct.
It just seems a bit delusional to justify strong anti-zionism by saying it's 'orthogonal' (horrible word) from Judaism.
The point I was, a bit clumsily, trying to make in that part of my comment was that your stats, while correct, probably still leave most jews sympathetic to zionism. The reason I was nitpicky about that is that some Palestinian activists (apologies for implying I meant you) justify creepy uses of the term 'zionists' by casting doubt that it applies to most jews.
But when people talk about Zionism they don’t just mean “Israel should be a country” — that’s been a moot point since 1948. They’re referring to a stronger form of nationalism, god-given right, ethnic supremacy, violent suppression, etc.
It could be some mental deficit on my part, but this makes no sense to me.
The question of whether Israel should be a country or not seems like a living question to me: neighboring nations don't recognize it as legitimate, and my impression is that neither do most Palestinians.
They’re referring to a stronger form of nationalism, god-given right, ethnic supremacy, violent suppression, etc.
If this is what people are using as a definition, that seems like a problem in itself, because it tosses all sorts of people with less obnoxious views into the same category. It would be like substituting the word 'Americans' for 'Trump voters' in situations where the latter is more accurate.
The people you see online protesting Zionism most likely don’t hold the same views as Hezbollah or Ayatollah Khomeini. You can see why it’s frustrating to be painted with that brush. Just like most Americans bristle at being painted as Trump voters.
It’s worth noting in this century Palestinian support for a two state solution has been as high as 75%.
That's a new issue, but, for what it's worth: shame on people who do that.
Palestinian support for a two state solution has been as high as 75%
If I were Palestinian, I might accept a two-state solution, but, since Palestinians had little to do with the plight of jews outside the middle east, I doubt I could ever consider Israel a legitimate state.
Is it that hard to understand why so many jews moved to Israel? It's not primarily for supremacist or religious reasons, since the waves of immigration follow the holocaust, and various episodes of persecution and programs in Eastern Europe and throughout the whole Middle East.
Why do you need data for a philosophical distinction?
Because the philosophical distinction is not the only factor. Eg: philosophically, men can be feminists, but if I were to put up 'Feminists are evil' posters at my workplace, it matters that, in reality, many more women are feminists than men.
I expect most Emacs users are computer programmers. Does this mean that computer programming is, in some sense, inherently related to Emacs? Does it make sense to conflate "programmers" and "Emacs users"?
If a considerable number of people hated 'VS Code users' enough to kill them, which surprisingly is not the case, then, yes, rhetoric about 'the evil programmers' would raise legitimate concerns. This would especially be true if it were taboo to complain openly about 'VS Code users'
The point about Israelis and jews is perfectly valid. I probably know more about the country of Israel than plenty of jews in the UK (and I don't even know that much).
With zionism, it's a little different: a person is a zionist by virtue of simply holding an opinion, and it's an opinion I have to imagine most jews hold.
I don't know...I grew up in the southern US. There were plenty of people I knew who were evangelical but very pro-israel. Primarily so the end times would be brought on.
At least around me, Christian Zionists are by far the majority.
That's an excellent point that hadn't crossed my mind. When I hear people discussing 'zionism' it never occurs to me they might be thinking of evangelical zionists. In my neck of the woods, where evangelicals have no presence at all, they probably aren't. In the South, they may well be.
Edit: this kills me to say, because the way people discuss 'zionism' still creeps me out, but my argument was wrong. Since there is a substantial number of evangelical zionists, you were right to say jewish and zionist shouldn't be conflated.
I get it and I also feel quite weird about it. I always have to be careful when reading somebody's comment that mentions Zionism to see if they're just spouting conspiracy theories, if it's actually grounded in reality, or do they just hate Jewish people...
Christian Zionists are ideologically the majority, yes. But when you look at actions, by far, Jewish zionists are much more pro-Israel than Evangelicals. The fired deans and the blacklisting of American students was done by Ackman, Miriam Adelson and Karp. Ken Griffin made public remarks, but took no action to actually censor Americans. Their views and donations to Israel are also public. My point is Zionism is certainly an ideology, but the ones funding it are rarely Evangelicals. Carter is Evangelical and is labeled in Israel as an anti-Semite for merely visiting Palestine during his Israeli tour. It is very interesting to me that the Adelsons and Ackmans made their fortune in the US, yet funnel that money into Israel and blacklist Americans on behalf of a foreign (and dare I say, hostile) nation that is very much alien to American interests and American values. To me, it appears they identify first and foremost as Israeli by virtue of their Jewishness, and if that is their wish, I think mislabeling it does more harm than good. An Evangelical will visit Israel and utter a few prayers. An American Zionist will harm America to ensure Israel prospers. The two are very much different. The first is freedom of speech and religion. The other is treason. You should perhaps focus more on protecting those administrative officials who were fired for standing up for free speech, or that kid who got denied due process for protesting freely, instead of defending Zionism. It is easy to defend those who hold power. It is much more difficult and brave to stand up for those who lack a voice and political influence
Your rant is filled with so many things that have absolutely nothing to do with each other. Homelessness, Healthcare, Ivy League, Jewish and Israeli people, Big Tech, AIPAC, and Bears oh my!
I also have no idea why you've developed the urge to censor the words "Israel" and "Jewish". They're just words... they can't hurt you.
This appears to be the flailing's of a dying ideology. Fewer and fewer people are paying attention to these extremist positions. So we get things like this; totally nonsensical rants connecting dots with imaginary red yarn in ways only a schizophrenic "true crime" enthusiast could appreciate.
It's pretty amazing to see the "conspiracy theorists" swing from the far-right to the far-left in such a short period of time.
