Exactly! We don't know what Aaron would have been sentenced to, and it would probably have been a mere fraction of the maximum penalty. There was something else going on in his life that we don't and most probably won't know or ever understand that lead him to take his own life. Regardless the world would have been a better place with him around, and it's a sad state of affairs that the rules and laws regarding computer crimes are so out of context and maybe even unjust. That being said, it was Aaron who took his own life, not the justice system regardless of how fucked up we believe it to be.
Re: (1): Grieving friends and family, while the best sources on some topics, may not have a completely accurate understanding of the suicidal mind. In their desire to make the loss "count for something", and work through their own "survivor's guilt", they may be especially likely to ascribe to acute tangible external reasons something that was equally or mainly caused by chronic non-specific internal reasons.
From timing it's likely that the lawsuit pressure was central in Aaron's reasoning. But in suicidal depression, accurate reasoning breaks down. Survivable, tolerable, and temporary things can seem permanent and intolerable. Without one apparent trigger (the prosecution), a depressive mind could latch instead onto other rationales... even rationales that seem to outsiders like personal triumphs. Inside the depressive mind those triumphs might not deliver the expected satisfaction, or may seem to represent a peak that can never be matched again and just wasn't enough.
I know it seems pat to say, "it was depression, period". There should be more consideration of the particulars than that. But it's equally pat to say, "a smart guy killed himself, he must have had logical reasons, let's rank all the potential logical reasons from public information, and conclude the top item on that list is 'the' reason". Without severe depression, all the publicly-known logical reasons aren't enough to explain this suicide.... but severe depression, or other stresses not publicly known, might explain it.
Perhaps, you misunderstand my original intentions. I'm not trying to stop the propagation of things I believe to be wrong. I have no idea if it was the trial or not.
However other suicidal people reading us all saying "Oh it was definitely the trail, that's why he killed himself", they might just think that if there is a lot of external pressure they are justified in killing themselves. This might lead to people killing themselves. Please try to discourage that.
It's like security research. We follow Responsible Disclosure for vulnerablities where you don't tell the public first. When there is a big bug (e.g. the recent Ruby on Rails bug), we don't all post links to proofs of concepts. Why? Because doing these things tends to result in innocent people getting hurt. The same thinking should be at play with suicide.
But suicide never stops being a problem. So your plan is to.. lie to people forever? In security research terms, let them keep buying onity locks, because we don't want people to know how to break onity locks and steal/hurt?
It's not the only factor but as jlgreco said it's the "sack of bricks that broke the camels back"
It's very true that you can't be sure. But it's definitely a notable factor. People don't make important decisions based on a single reason. Suicide isn't special here.
And your argument is completely unrelated to what I was objecting to, which is the idea that admitting influences on suicide must be stopped because it's badthink and could cause more suicide.
The problem is not admitting influences, of course there always are triggers, be them external or internal. The problem is quoting a single influence as the only or primary cause, especially if it's an external trigger, as that can motivate other depressed people to go over the line.
And that's why suicide is indeed special here, but in a different sense: it's special because random careless talk on a forum can be such a trigger, or be the seed of a future trigger.
Of course one cannot be held accountable for such an event, but given it's simple and free to avoid simplifying the causes of suicide, why not avoid it?
>given it's simple and free to avoid simplifying the causes of suicide, why not avoid it?
It isn't free though. It's de facto censorship.
Aaron Swartz is dead. People want to know why. People want to make sure something like this doesn't happen again to someone else. To do that on a rational basis, you have to understand the cause. It appears quite likely that the cause, or at least a very large contributing factor, was this prosecution by the DoJ. What they did was unacceptable. If nothing is done they will do it again, and again, and again. How can we do anything about it if we can't even talk about it?
I get what you're trying to say. It isn't sensible to commit suicide just because you're in a bad place. But you're arguing like all people have to do is shut up and everything will be fine. Not talking about it doesn't get it fixed.
I'm not at all arguing that shutting up will make everything be fine.
I'm arguing that mentioning the most logical trigger as a sure main/only cause for the suicide, besides being fallacious, can potentially cause more harm than good.
We sure must not accept what is regularly being done in prosecutions, but not because someone died, rather because it's a policy of terror instead of application of justice.
>We sure must not accept what is regularly being done in prosecutions, but not because someone died, rather because it's a policy of terror instead of application of justice.
I understand. I just don't think it's that simple. A major part of making normal people understand the severity of this policy of terror is to understand what its victims feel. You can't just separate the two so easily and say "excessive prosecutions are bad, go fight them" -- to do that we still have to convince people why they're so bad, to make them understand what the victims of the justice system feel, and "they're so egregious they're capable of driving good people to suicide" is a very powerful fact if you can show it. It's the kind of thing that can make the difference in whether it gets fixed or not.
Yes, by all means use his death for something useful like fighting this system. But you can do that in different ways, some more potentially harmful than others.
It'd be interesting to know how many people commit suicide on prosecution.
If nothing is done they will do it again, and again, and again. How can we do anything about it if we can't even talk about it?
Yes, we should try to stop suicide. So why not listen to the professionals & experienced? Why not listen to what they say helps and hinders? The people who work full time trying to stop suicide tell us that this sort of 'blame one thing' hinders that goal!
>Yes, we should try to stop suicide. So why not listen to the professionals & experienced?
Because general-purpose advice doesn't always fit specific circumstances. I look at it as taking the long view or the short view: If we talk about this now we may increase the risk of copycats in the short term, but fix it and indefinitely on from that point the justice system is no longer putting so much pressure on its victims that so many become a suicide risk, to say nothing of rectifying the real injustices against the accused who are only pushed up to the line but not over it. It's cold math but that's the way it is.
I think you will find that most people are aware of that. But it very well could have been the factor that drove him over the edge and you're going to have to allow for that.
Who is saying that the case was the only factor? I've only seen it as a strawman by those arguing it away. I see these people as protecting the prosecution's perspective on the case. "Hey, don't look at us."
> There was something else going on in his life that we don't and most probably won't know or ever understand that lead him to take his own life.
Facing prison for even 6 months is reason enough to kill yourself. Facing that plus rapes/AIDS/beatings/overcrowding in prison, plus a large fine, plus multiple years of probation, all for a victimless crime, is even more reason to kill yourself.
Are you actually recommending suicide to all would be inmates,
or just to the depressive HN readers who might be on a tight spot right now?
Your comment strikes me as absolutely irresponsible and out of touch with reality. Prison is not a joke, but there's a reason the capital punishment is death.
Suicide is a viable option to what Aaron was facing, no depression needed. His life was all but ruined anyway. Plenty of people chose suicide on 9/11 rather than face something worse. Doubtful they were all irresponsible, depressed, or out of touch with reality. More likely they just made the best choice as they saw it.
Yet you are confident you can predict his future, it seems. I have an opinion about which of two options is better. Of course I could be wrong. Maybe Aaron would sell another piece of a company, enough to pay off the fine/penalties/interest and not be homeless. If it were me I'd jump off a bridge before I'd endure repeated anal rape, let alone everything else Aaron was facing.
On the contrary, I don't even know if he would have actually ended up in prison, let alone anally raped. But you are sure he would - before his trial started!
Anyway, the main point that has totally gone over your head, is that one should never, ever, encourage suicide. There are people out there with the right type of wrong mood that might get influenced by careless talk.
Before you tell me you don't care and it's not your responsibility, please think harder. Thanks.
Trial wasn't a good choice. He could've ended up in prison for 10+ years that way, and probably didn't have the $1+ million for legal fees to have a decent chance of avoiding that outcome. A plea bargain or fleeing to one of the few corners of the world where the US can't grab you were the only realistic choices other than suicide.
> Anyway, the main point that has totally gone over your head, is that one should never, ever, encourage suicide.
I'm not encouraging suicide in general. I'm saying it can be a viable option, no depression necessary. By being realistic about suicide being a viable option we might better save people on the brink by better understanding their thinking, rather than assume that the choice of suicide is always bad and taboo to discuss.
Suicide is a good choice, but trial wasn't because you might get a 10 year sentence. Pray tell, what prevents suicide during trial or after conviction?
Suicide can be an option without depression, but when you have the fire at your toes and it's either death in 30 seconds by fire or in 5 minutes by free fall (and even then it's arguable.)
It's certainly NOT a viable option when you are months or years away of the feared problems, and even LESS so when they are not life or death.
Suicide can be talked about but not like you stated it: "He had no choice, yeah, suicide made sense." Especially when you are not being realistic, you are blinded by a weird combination of prescience and intimate knowledge of the happenings inside of prisons.
Which leads to my final point (this is what led me to answer your nonsense for a final time): Going to jail IS an option, an option that millions go through every year. Some of them are rich white kids that continue their lives afterward. And I can tell for a fact not all of them are raped.
It's harder to kill yourself post-conviction. He wasn't a wealthy CEO or like that, so presumably he'd have been in handcuffs within minutes of a guilty verdict. Some of the perhaps-innocent people indefinitely detained in Gitmo are trying to starve themselves. They get strapped down daily and calories are forced into them.
What's worse, burned alive or prison/huge fine/felony conviction/good chance of rapes/beatings/poverty/homelessness? For many people including me, either may be a fate worse then death.
His odds of being raped were over 20% according to studies. It's a safe bet that the young and handsome are more at risk.
I've said elsewhere I wish he had fled to another country. But I can see how being on the run, especially from the nearly worldwide reach of the US, could be a life too hard to bear for many people.
While I disagree that jail and the other hardships Aaron faced are a viable alternative to suicide, for me at least, I respect your opinion on that and understand that yours is the opinion of the vast majority.
