1. Those jobs may still be open, reasonable people wouldn't hold taking another job against you. Work is work, and those who step back into discussion with you will show you a reasonableness that you will value more than before.

2. Situations like this is why sign-ing bonuses were invented. If you're COO of anything, you should also be able to negotiate a proper separation agreement, something like 6 months severance after 6 months of service. The signing bonus covers the initial bump, and then everyone has a window to see if things are copacetic. After that, it's a real relationship with consequences for dissolution.

3. You should be interviewing and considering companies as much as they're evaluating you. There's gotta be more to this story, some of which may be evident as you ponder what really happened. You've gotta develop that antennae. Asking to speak to a company's founders or advisors is a reasonable thing to do, certainly for a COO role that involves international relocation.

4. The "best guys" I've ever worked for f*cked me or our companies over. It's an important qualification to an extent, but character and vision and stability are secondary factors that will wag the dog, so to speak. Especially in startups. Startups are risky, and not always due to market forces or the brilliance of the business idea. Give yourself a good long notch in your work belt.

    > Those jobs may still be open, reasonable people wouldn't 
    > hold taking another job against you

If I've made someone an offer, I want them. If they've had a better offer, that's ok. But if they've turned me down because it went nowhere, I still want them.

Twice I've gone back to someone who had given me an offer and said "I screwed up, would you still consider me?" a year later, and had an instant and very positive response. (I had to do a fake interview at one of those, but just to satisfy HR).

Obviously, everything's negotiable. It doesn't sound like an unreasonable strategy to demand an "insurance bonus" of some sort if you're a high-value employee and the company is pre-revenue, or if your role commits your network to the company, as this person's did when he used his network to sell the company's product.

Signing bonus: [brackets is some notes]

"Dear CEO,

I appreciate the offer of COO for X amount. [be polite] I've taken some careful consideration over the role and what it entails for me personally. [remind them you're a human] I've reviewed not only this offer but many others that have come as a result of my merit, ambition, and drive to enable the success of any organization. [remind them why they hired you and why its gonna change their world] I am prepared to move forward with you and your team, however ask that a bonus upon signage be applied to my overall compensation package. [in general, I would suggest leaving out the "why" - let them ask you personally and then go into convo]"

Severance: [brackets is some notes]

"Dear CEO/HR person,

I appreciate that a decision was made regarding the future of my relationship with the business and you've done everything in your power to ensure that I walk away standing proud of my merits. [be polite and thank them for being nice people] Unfortunately, as demonstrated by your actions to let me go, I am not a match for the future success of XYZ company. I would, however appreciate some form of severance upon my departure. As you can imagine, having unexpected circumstances can lead to personal hardship. This situation is clearly not ideal in the short term for me and my family. [remind them you're human] Any appreciation and goodwill you may have towards my situation will go a long way. Thank you for your time"

Note - these are nowhere near perfect or will ever be contextually correct, but are a good starting point.

But, the only real answer to this question is to talk to a lawyer. And, don't be afraid to negotiate aggressively. After all, this is your first chance to show your new bosses that you're a tough negotiator. Be fair but never be a pushover.

At C levels I'd expect someone to bring it up in negotiations.

For management positions this means 1 month severance for every year of service.

So if you romanced an executive into joining your startup you and then fire them you could be on the hook for a very large severance package.

I believe the parent was talking about C-level positions. I don't know if that applies at a 2 person startup where everyone is a C-level but at larger companies you probably have lots of room to negotiate if you're taking that type of position.

Other than that, I agree with everyone who is saying to get back in touch with the offers you turned down. Even if they've all hired someone else already, talking to people who wanted to hire you in the recent past is a great way to kick off a job search.

- Do you have a degree, and experience? Great. Is someone willing to advertise the job to American citizens for a month or so, interview good potential candidates beforehand, and still want you? Even better. Now, just wait for next year's allocation of visa's and you might grab one on the day they're released. Then, wait between 1 and 8 years for your visa to be processed (while the job is still available) and you're allowed to work here.

- Are you an exceptional alien? Well, do you judge other's work, have papers written, have competed in a globally recognised event for your work, or some other proof of your excellence? Yes? Great, we can apply, but there's only a limited number of visas. Wait a year.

It's really, really tough. Not many of us make it. I had a few job offers moving over here but was only able to move here because my wife was American. And getting her back to the UK is also no easy feat.

Despite being globally connected the visa process still sucks.

You're confusing H-1B visas with green card applications.

This isn't relevant to work visas, only relevant to permanent residency applications. The H-1B visa does not require exhausting locals before hiring foreigners, all it needs is to demonstrate competence and education.

Ditto the waiting years part, work visas do not take years, permanent residency permits do.

The H-1B visa is very, very easy to apply so long as the candidate has at least a recognized bachelor's degree. The real downside to H-1B is that it's subject to annual caps, and therefore timing is inconvenient. The visas are valid starting October of that year, but must be applied for before the quota is exhausted. This historically is somewhere between April and August of that year.

Not to mention once you have it the visa is portable between employers with none of the above restrictions. It's definitely not ideal, but working in the US is not nearly as hard as you're making it out to be.

In some cases you're not applicable for a H1-B (I was a dropout) so my only route was another type which had a several year waiting list. Can't remember the visa name right now, I'll do some googling though.

You have a masters in CS and 6 years of management experience. You are so far from fucked.

Also I wouldn't give the Founders the benefit of the doubt of being "good people." Even if they are a YC startup, morons come in all shapes and sizes so even YC isn't moron-free. And yes, only a moron makes decisions to hire people that will have to go through a lot of change to take the job without being absolutely positively sure that they are the right person.

This sounds like an episode of "Hire Slow, Fire Fast", which is a cool way of saying: "We fucked up. Abort! Abort! Abort!" Despite how nice they are being to your face, they've realized for some valid-to-them reason that they made a mistake in hiring you. Don't take it personally, just get back on the horse.

Really. Employers everywhere are looking for people like you. Breathe, accept what happened, DO NOT BLAME YOURSELF FOR IT and move on to the next thing. Remember, if you are going through hell, keep going!

(2) Reach out again to the managers behind some of your past job offers. We have hired people who previously passed on us then had the other gig fall through or run out of funding. Many of those old offers will reappear and you'll be fine.

   http://www.ycombinator.com/ethics/

-- Treating co-founders and employees with fairness and respect.

-- Not behaving in a way that damages the reputation of his/her company or of YC.

-- Keeping your word, including honoring handshake deals.

-- Generally behaving in an upstanding way.

The OP made a serious accusation against a YC company. I assume YC can pretty easily figure out which company this is. I would expect that YC would investigate and take action if warranted.

[1] http://www.ycombinator.com/handshake/

A - I love that this exists!

B - This needs to be discussed with startups more often by co-founders, employees and investors.

I know this is idealistic, but then startups (and people associated with them) often are. Startups can aspire to things/goals that larger companies can't. This (discussion about ethics) is as important, if not more important, than the "How do we grow" discussion.

If you got this job, it's extremely likely that you will get another. Don't get me wrong, it's going to suck to explain to people you promoted the startup to that you actually don't work there after all, but it's not the end of the world.

Yes, if he truly wasn't a good fit, it sounds like they hired too quickly.

Mentor whiplash gets the founders all frothy that they need to do X, Y, and Z _immediately_ or their company will fall apart. Unfortunately, it changes to A, B, and C a week later after meetings with another 30 people. These founders aren't bad people. They just have no idea what they're doing. They got shoved into this crazy new accelerator experience, and they're being told by their heroes that they need to XYZ and ABC immediately, and they freak out and they make decisions too quickly.

Founders joining accelerators, do yourself a favor: the minute you think you NEED to hire one of those first employees, wait a week. Wait 2. Chat with some people informally. Don't setup a coffee meeting and ambush them with your whole team. Just breathe and take your time. Building your team is the most important thing you are ever going to do. This is not cliche. The process of building one, especially that initial core team, should be respected. Talk to some people. Do some contracts with them. Take it slow.

guybrushT, this sucks for you more than most given that you (and your wife!) were moving from another country. The founders should have been more careful. If you still wanna move to the states, I'd more than happy to introduce you to a bunch of startups in Boulder. We're always looking for developers here. Shoot me an email: ryan at ramen dot is.

These are not "good guys". They are at best short-sighted, unprepared, and unprofessional. Hiring decisions are important and difficult; the best spin I can see is that they do not know who they need and are very unprepared for this step. (Want a worse spin? Someone they know has suddenly become available and they wish to give them the employee #1/Coo badge.) This behavior is a big red flag.

(I've been in similar situations before---I'm thinking of a research group at ORNL right now---but rescinding an offer is significantly worse.)

As other people have said, don't worry about your personal situation. Most of your contacts will likely have understood your original decision and find the thing offensive as well.

On the other hand, I don't think you'll be able to convince your wife to move to the US again. Tell her we're not all assholes, though.

If you got accepted a job offer, and within 2 weeks got a job offer for more money, and at your dream company, would you feel obligated to stay with your initial decision?

If you made the rational (but arguably unethical choice), do you think your reputation should be tarnished, and future employers think hard before extending an offer?

I know it's not the exact situation as the OP, but situations are rarely so straight forward, and often have nuances that we aren't aware of.

To the OP, at the very least, you probably dodged a bullet. So blessing in disguise.

I would even argue that any time your dream job makes an offer, you should feel free to leave your current job regardless of status, loyalty, and so on.

This is true, but not without context.

In my scenario above, the circumstances were similar. 2-3 weeks into a new job.

Excluding someone who has been unemployed for an extended period of time, it seems odd that in 2-3 weeks, losing your job would shatter their life.

---

And I wouldn't exclude companies for being "shattered" either. It's very possible for companies to be formed around the reputation of a single individual, and if that individual left, would be shattering. Especially in early stages of a financing round.

Your current best offer will be willing to stretch out their offer for a week. And the other company will be willing to accelerate their decision process, so as to bridge this two weeks gap.

But once you made your decision, you should stick with your decision... at least for a year, all things other than this 'dream job' being equal. The dream company and the dream job-- if you got in today, you are likely going to get that again in a year.

So did you have an official contract, equity deal, etc? I doubt there's much you can do about these decision not to take you on after all, you probably need to grieve for the job and move on, but you should certainly hold them to their legal obligations, especially if they had to give you notice (which they should be paying you for).

American companies generally don't have any notice requirements. The fact that he's overseas may create a liability for the company in that country, but they probably don't care about that.

(edit: They must absolutely pay him for hours worked.)

Assuming his options had vesting (which 'tptacek will remind us to always have, so the YC company probably knows about that advice), he doesn't have any equity.

I've seen this problem from a few sides, so OP has my sympathy, for whatever it's worth. I've seen people laid off a week after joining when the adults suddenly realized they were bleeding money. I very very recently saw someone approved for a job and accept it, told to wait a few days while internal funding moved around, and then suddenly the entire project was cancelled.

I'm not sure why you say you like the founders when they treat people like this. This is a serious blow to your life that they are responsible for.

I have a serious beef with this mode of thinking. Nothing that you do to another human being is a "purely business decision." And from a practical perspective it's better, in the long run, for you too to be remembered as having owned your mistakes and done right by the people you wronged.

Of course, there is the line of thinking that, hey, this guy won't ever help me later, so I can screw him and skate. And that is entirely too common in startupland. But that speaks to the poor humanity of its thinker more than anything else.

Hopefully, when you turned down the job offer, you did so in a classy way. As a hiring manager, if a candidate I extended an offer to, reach back out to me after declining, and said their situation changed, I would consider making a new offer. True you lose negotiating leverage, but I would expect a percentage greater than 0 of companies that would re-engage with you.

> Told my friends/family about the job, and that I will be moving to America

This is a minor issue. Plans change. They'll get over it. Hopefully they didn't throw you a going-away party yet :)

> Reached out to all my contacts (including everyone who was trying to hire me) and attempted to sign them up for this YC service

No good deed goes unpunished. But seriously, you did the right thing by trying to help out this company. I don't see this as a problem.

> I reached out to several people (e.g. at Google, FB, Partners at a management consultancy (i.e. my former employers)) asking them for a potential investment into this company ("Use our personal networks" was a key strategy), some of these helped me find a job that I turned down

I'm sure those same potential investors will circle back around to you, and decline investing, given that you are no longer with the company.

If recruiters are trained to insult potential employees by making lower offers than they earlier rejected, they deserve all the unfilled vacancies they're going to get.

The lawyer gives you two things:

1) He knows if you can be compensated for the damage;

2) It would give YC an opportunity to take care of this matter.

Oh, and by the way: I don't know their side of the story, therefore I don't want to judge; however, it is very likely that they lied to you - letting someone go after two weeks is weird, and I don't believe that "it's not about you".

In truth though, regardless of the appearance, bridge burning is never a good idea. NEVER.

I personally know a nursing home company that fired an employee in an unprofessional way. 20 years later she became the person in charge of nursing home licensing in that state. Guess whose licenses got revoked?! 20 years later, millions of dollars in losses.

That story may be an outlier, I don't know... but a simple evaluation of the risks and benefits of burning this bridge indicate very strongly that you should not burn it.

The argument people make about "having the right to know." to be able to avoid that company is really just self-serving curiosity. I am curious too. But...it's really only appropriate to share that info. to an individual, in private, if you feel they are truly at risk of the same unfair treatment.

Just my two cents.

Suggestions:

Know exactly what skill-set the founders were looking for; what lifestyle choices they were looking for is probably also related. You can turn this into a conversation that helps both parties ask better interview questions.

Ask that you stay on, making your salary for several weeks as a contractor. If this isn't possible ask that you get paid reasonable living expenses for a few weeks. This provides a little runway for your job search. (Be wary though that this might raise your hopes.)

Always ensure that you get paid. For that one week before they hired you, for the two weeks you were on.

For your network that you asked for investment from, you need to secure that a) you are no longer part of that company b) if an investment is made, you deserve an advisor's fee (5-10% pre round is typical)

If I were in your shoes, I would immediately re-establish contact with the recruiters who previously made you offers, and let them know you were grievously misled by this other company, and you are interested to know if their offer is still available.

You may also consider engaging a lawyer. If it were me, I would demand payment for all time worked, plus additional monies to compensate you for your opportunity cost of turning down these other offers, especially if you left a previous job to work for these guys.

EDIT: Though, the remote working arrangement and lack of US visa, even with what appears to be, from the given description, a valid employment contract (with offer, acceptance, and performance all having occurred) likely makes this less clear cut and, in any case, makes pursuing it more difficult, costly, and time consuming.

You need a lawyer.

startups are risky...high risk high reward...it didn't work out but man, if you were good enough to be hired like that you can find 100's of opportunities.

IANAL.

I'm not saying it's this persons fault, but I don't necessarily think saying the founders are not good guys (aka bad guys), I think it's more about being assertive and protecting yourself.

In my experience, I've never handed in notice without a formal offer and that's for local jobs. If you add moving abroad to that, then there are definitely some extra steps needed to protect yourself.

I sincerely wish you the best in finding somewhere else, and it's a horrible situation, but if you had a similar offer in a month, would you do it differently?

Thank you!

if you had a similar offer in a month, would you do it differently?

You know thats such a good question. There are many excellent suggestions in this discussion. I would definitely add a cost in the contract - a cost (e.g. severance etc.) in case I am asked to leave for reasons other than performance. This should mitigate the casualness which hurt me last time.

What won't change is that startups are looking for great people, and some people are looking for great startups :) But I would definitely structure the deal with a startup very differently, as a result of this discussion.

What the consensus on the best way for someone to avoid this? Immediate vesting if let go? Some predefined severance agreement? 6 mo/12 mo contract? I understand it's a big decision for a startup to hire employee #1, but how can I protect myself in such a future case?

Joining a startup is a risk, period. Part of that risk is that the company (or your job) will be gone in weeks/months/years. However, the upside is usually there. So if you can tolerate the risk, go for it... but always have a plan B.

Your situation is frustrating, but there's plenty of opportunity for smart, motivated, talented people. To help with your frustration, try to flip the story in your mind. This company is going to have to find a way to succeed without your knowledge, experience, and help. That's their problem now.

Good luck to you.

That is the major reason why I first learnt to avoid «charismatic/nice» employers; I was fed up of being f*cked in the ass nicely. Then I matured and learnt to trust but check.

Which one is it?

We can be sure that anyone in the YC board reading this thread has a pretty good idea who they are by now, in any case.

You even said that you "found a job that you turned down" earlier. So it sounds like things worked out fine. Of course it was hard on you. But changing a job always is.

I don't know what your home country is, but I do know that there are millions of desperately poor unemployed people in India, 25% youth unemployment in Spain, and a pretty tough labor market here in the US for some low-skilled workers. We should be thankful for what we've got. And part of the reason we've got what we have in Sillicon Valley is a culture that allows experimentation. Quickly setting up a company is only possible if you can quickly tear it down or retarget it when things aren't working out.

You mentioned that you have a postgraduate degree in management. Well, you should know that what you're getting into when you join a startup is different than if you join a big, established company. Be a man (or woman) about this. Don't ask for special treatment.

And for the record, I had an employment offer yanked during the crash of 2001. Fun times.

For example,if you are doing a h1b transfer, please wait for the h1b transfer to complete before you resign from your previous position.

I was offered a job in Singapore by a start-up. I filled all the legal documents required including the employment pass application that I sent them back. Weeks later I got a standard email from HR saying they offered the job to another candidate. I was shocked they eventually withdrew their offer.

The problem was I talked about my friends, family, that I'm moving to Singapore (from Europe). My girlfriend who is living in Singapore was happy, along with me, till the point I told her the offer has been withdrawn.

It is interesting to mention that the CTO of the company is the one who had approached me first whether I'm interested in exploring positions with them. However when it comes to withdraw the offer he never turned up.

I'm happy I didn't make business with them. I found a much better company to work with and moving to Singapore next week.

I wish the best to you, it's for sure you'll overcome this with favorable outcome.

In french we say "un tiens vaut mieux que deux tu l'auras". "One given is better than you'll get two."

Bref, you have opportunity and to your wife telle the things frankly and breath you'll find job soon.

I wish you well for the next things.

Regards.

Some potential companies may look favorably on it. Companies are staffed by people, people are diverse in opinions.

Granted, keep in mind that I'm not privy to all the details. He very well may have been granted a generous severance pay-out to ease the burden -- I honestly don't know.

There's 500+ other jobs available, you can just as readily find another one.

Big companies usually do not fire for no good reason because of liability. Small companies don't have to worry as much because they don't have any money to sue for.

However these "good guys" are establishing their corporate culture now, and we hacker don't want to get dicked over too.

What precisely does that mean?

IANAL, but I know that if you and they signed on the dotted line, apart from the ethics, you have legal rights. Probably fewer in the US than other places, but some protection.

If nothing was signed, then I don't think you "officially joined" as COO. From their perspective, it might simply be more of an episode of serious miscommunication, than any untoward behavior on their part.

That really really sucks.

"Deal was to work remotely, till we all figured out the visa."

Looks like the "visa issue" remained to be solved.

Got interviewed, he wanted contract. I told him I'm only looking for permanent. 2 months later, project got cancelled and I got the boot.

http://www.scatter.fm/ (and a mobile app) - a location based deal site and mobile app for hunting deals from nearby shops.

Or https://yenbe-beta.appspot.com/

Seems like your ideas are generally around finding good deals, price hutning, so my guess is that the YCombinator startup that hired you is around the same idea. There are a few YCombinator startups that deal with simialr things; I don't have the time to find the entire list. Maybe someone else can do that and the HN community can figure out which company did this.

For context, try to imagine if the company had offered him a "legal agreement" where he was payed a few extra weeks' salary and in exchange agreed not to discuss anything.

So no upside just downsides, so don't do that part of "else I am telling the world".

most standard contracts would be being broken by this behaviour. if i were you i'd squeeze them for having dicked you over...

Probably a visa issue. Maybe a money issue (they don't dare admit that to any outsider, and employees are outsiders, so get the polite happy faced response management gives the rest of the world). Probably the all-too-typical inexperienced management issue most startups have.

When you choose to join a startup, you have to have a strong tolerance for surprises, some good, many bad. ALL of them are nice-seeming guys (nobody'd work for them otherwise). ALL of them have cool-sounding projects (will they work? Will they step on Big Legal's toes and die in deposition-induced agony? Will another 100 companies jump on the bandwagon before you can get it out there?)

It's a VC-self-serving myth that startups are succeeding at an increasing rate. See: http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/corporate-america-hasnt-... for the actual stats.

Keep in mind that chasing startup dreams may not be healthy for family life, especially given that the failure rate for startups has been increasing, not decreasing.

Of course, it's always made to sound like success is just around the corner, but your most recent experience should give you a good idea whether your family's risk tolerance makes it worth it to you and those you love. The odds of dreaming turning from a bunch of extreme hidden hard work into extreme hidden burned-out failure are high. The startup world's only prescription for that is that you rest up a bit, then do it again.

There's a reason some people take the corporate jobs, save up, and only then follow their dreams.

Too many people are wasting their precious youth following the "fail early, fail often" mantra that is counterintuitive for a reason.

VCs make their money on the ones that succeed. The ones that fail don't cost VCs all that much, once you start counting actual funded startups that have passed all due dilligence and cashed the check. It's hard to filter out all those who are really only braging about funding on the way, because they've got to be convincing about already having it to have any chance of getting it.

But a steep price is being paid in wasted best years caused by startup failures. I count as failures, even these smaller "pivots" such as one where an employee is let go because different talents are needed (their stated reason to you). You wasted your time? No skin off their noses, they get to be the nice guy to somebody else they can use.

The startup world's harm is as cruel as any harm the corporate world can do. The startup world is just far less honest about the harm that it does to individual startup employees, preferring to say whatever they need to, keeping everybody's dreams alive until they absolutely can't anymore.

No. They're not. You don't get to screw around with other people's lives and continue to possess the title of "good guy". If they were good guys, you would be receiving tens of thousands of dollars for your difficulties, and such would have enough of a runway on that such that you wouldn't need to ask us for advice. Please do us all a favor and let us know who they are beyond "a YC startup" so that none of us find ourselves in your shoes.

As it stands, if you had one of the other offers you were interested in, let them know that the company that you had taken reneged, and that you would love to work with them. Hiring good engineers is hard (and expensive) enough that any decent company won't mind being your second choice.

Two other reasons for considering revealing the name:

1) a casual bystander might see this and conclude that all YC companies behave in this way, which hurts the other companies.

2) PG and other partners at YC read HN, and there's a good chance that action can be taken if they know who is involved.

Same goes for PG or YC Partners, just say, "if you drop me a line saying you want to deal with this, contact me and we can discuss it and I'll see if it makes sense to disclose it."

The people I reached out to didn't even know or speak directly about the founders or startup itself. But because they had been in similar situations before, they knew what to look for that might become issues in the future, and then I could cross-reference that with my own personal experience to make a judgment.

Yes... and Yes.

What will happen? Will YC yank funding over this? I hope not -- that would set a dangerous precedent and make me, for one, that much less willing to pursue YC funding.

If the founders didn't want the OP before -- they especially aren't going to want him now that all this has occurred and threats about getting YC involved etc.

The bottom line -- you can be terminated for any reason, even if it's the color of your shirt on that particular day. Does that make it "right"? Well, that's a perspective thing.

Working his network to help get a startup's first few customers at large, brand name companies? I'd hardly call that unproductive. In fact, if they iterate product dev on one of these customers, find that perfect product market fit, and scale; well, I'd say he played a roll in their success.

"Perhaps there were issues the OP is completely unaware of?"

The issue is the manner in which the OP was terminated. The company could be totally justified letting him go, just not in the manner in which they did it.

"you can be terminated for any reason... Does that make it "right"? Well, that's a perspective thing."

One, you can't be terminated for any reason.

Two, we are seeing the perspective of public opinion and unfortunately it is reflecting negatively on YC since people don't have a more specific target. Everyone has a 'right' to choose who they work for.

Three, getting terminated is a little more than just perspective. It is an event which can have significant repercussions for a person: mortgage payments, kid's school costs, etc.

How so? They decided he was not a good fit, by his own admission... so they cut him loose. Would you rather they hurt their business by keeping on employees who won't work out?

> One, you can't be terminated for any reason.

Yes you can. California has At-Will Employment. It means they can hire or fire for any reason, with or without notice, even if it's silly like they don't like where you eat lunch. On the same note, you can quit for any reason, without notice, even if it's silly like you don't like where the owners eat lunch.

> Yes you can. California has At-Will Employment. It means they can hire or fire for any reason

No, it means that the initial burden is on the person alleging illegal firing or not-hiring to establish a prima facie case that the reason was a prohibited reason, rather than the burden being the hiring/firing party to establish that the reason was a permitted reason.

It does not mean that hiring/firing for any reason is allowed. In fact, there are lots of prohibited reasons for firing in California.

It's just "default allow" when it comes to hiring/firing decisions.

Terminating based on say, race or sex, is however. That is very clearly not the case here.

Its not even a reason, its just a semantically empty phrase. But in any case, I didn't say there was a prohibited reason here, I said that the claim that "at-will employment" means you can hire or fire "for any reason" is false.

Again, we have one side of the story here, and with only one side, people are jumping to conclusions. What if the founders came on and said the OP lied about his qualifications? Letting emotions get in the way of business is a fast way to fail.

Quite frankly, and in your words, the OP "fucked up" by committing to a startup before even having a Visa he pointed out is/was important, and from the sound of it, may not have even been an official hire with contracts signed. He did work, and if he was an official hire, he would have already been paid for said work.

Being told you will be a COO is not the same as actually being the COO. That would be as-if I told a gardener I thought I might hire him, then come home one day and he's cut my yard and demands payment. If i was hired on as a COO with a startup, you bet my contract would have specific terms for which I may be terminated. Why did the OP not have something similar?

The bottom line -- it's nothing personal, it's business.

Startups are not big corps. They aren't going to do big corp things like severance. If that's not acceptable to you -- do not sign on with a startup. In a few months the OP will be in a new job and will look back on this as a learning experience - one that he will be a stronger individual from and perhaps more cautious in the future.

From the account given, he did do work remotely.

> may not have even been an official hire with contracts signed.

A contract generally doesn't need to be signed to be valid (there are specific exceptions to this, but employment contracts generally aren't exceptions), it can be oral, and, accepting the account given by the OP, offer, acceptance, and performance under the contract are all evident.

If the OP did actual work, and was not an official hire with either verbal or written contract, then he was an eager beaver and jumped-the-gun, which is understandable, but ultimately would be his mistake. (I refer back to my gardener example above).

People seem to be arguing the startup owes him some sort of severance -- which is ridiculous unless it was in his employment agreement.

The OP will look back on this and learn some valuable and long lasting lessons from this ordeal.

I think that we agree that the startup would be breaking the law. Where we disagree is that you seem to think that "It would be illegal, and therefore it didn't happen" is a valid line of reasoning.

I don't disagree that letting him go might have been the right decision for both parties, but to not compensate him properly for working his network to help get them some of their first customers, turning down other job offers, and actively working for the company? That's not right. They might have made a mistake in hiring him, but they definitely made a mistake in not adequately compensating him for his effort and explaining to him the reasons for the abrupt termination.

"At-Will Employment"

It doesn't allow termination for 'any reason' as other commenters have pointed out. And if CEOs and founders rely too much on this clause and don't behave ethically we could find ourselves in a position like France, where you can't fire anybody, a situation I hope we can avoid by professional conduct and respecting that it isn't just business, but people's lives.

Actually, it does mean "for any reason" (well, within the law, which would exclude things such as race or gender, but that is clearly not the case here). Furthermore, a reason of "this employee is not a good fit for our company because of reason X" is absolutely allowed. (Unless the OP had signed a contract that had termination terms, etc... doesn't seem like it).

> we could find ourselves in a position like France, where you can't fire anybody

This is what employment contracts are for, some companies will have terms for when a termination is satisfactory, and other times you can negotiate terms as part of your employment agreement.

We only have one side of this story, and a lot of emotions have been stirred because of it. Was the OP actually officially hired (as in he had salary or hourly compensation was was logging hours)? If not, then why was he already performing "work" by hitting up companies and investing his time? (Seems like a "jump-the-gun" mistake).

I'm really sorry this happened to the OP -- but it's not abnormal, and certainly isn't the first time a YC funded startup has had to pivot and cut employees that won't fit.

...getting terminated is a little more than just perspective. It is an event which can have significant repercussions for a person: mortgage payments...

This is the key issue. To be honest, even I am realising the impact this can have, only after it happened to me.

Financial: all plans made carefully, thoughtfully and intentionally are suddenly meaningless.

Personal: lot of awkward discussions :) friends, relatives, business acquaintances (e.g. I did the mistake of updating my LinkedIn - COO one day, and 14 days later deleted the "employment status". As someone pointed out, this is a first world problem - there are much worse things that can happen. I agree. But still, it really annoys me to explain myself to everyone who asks. Some even wonder, if I was "fired" :))

Work: searching for a job is not fun (at least for me), and having found something I love, commit to it (after much consideration) and then being yanked out of it so soon, felt cruel.

Come on. They didn't do anything wrong. They withdrew an offer of employment.

1. It could be performance related, and they just don't want to tell OP, 2. They realised quickly -- shock horror, things change quickly in startups -- that actually they don't need X guy they need Y guy. These things happen.

In situations like this you can fire well: give explicit reasons, make sure the person knows you're going to give them a great reference, consider paying them a notice period in excess of what you're obligated to. But really they didn't do anything wrong, and I don't think naming and shaming them is going to solve anything.

Doing this without compensation is ABSOLUTELY doing something wrong. Maybe not necessarily tortious, but certainly unethical and indicative of someone who should not be trusted in a business relationship. The YC company made a mistake and is sticking someone else with the bill.

FWIW, There's a certain amount of "foreigners are expendable" mindset that seems to exist in the American tech sphere that might factor into this situation as well...

The company paid me a 6 week severance, even though I never worked a minute for them, just to compensate me for what I had given up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promissory_estoppel#Promissory_...

Not necessarily. What if a major investor pulled out and they aren't going to have the capital available to hire this guy? What if hiring him meant not paying people who had been promised salaries after working for free? What if they could have hired him but others would have had to be fired?

They certainly made a mistake, but we don't know why they did what they did. It's unlikely to be malicious "Let's just screw this guy", and far more likely to be for reasons that each one of us, if we were in their shoes, would consider to be very good.

They didn't withdraw an offer, they terminated someone who had accepted and was actively working for the company.

They didn't do anything wrong.

Yes, they did. Is it okay to let the OP go quickly because they made a mistake: no resources to deal with visa issues, wrong domain expertise, etc? Yes. Is it okay to do this without compensation, especially after rescinding other offers, working his personal network, etc? No!

The OP din't just do some code, he worked his professional network and went out on a limb for this startup. They screwed him, probably for the right reasons, but they need to admit the mistake and make the OP right.

Some in my network (former consulting clients and business friends) ended up buying the service. So the company benefited in a tangible way (real $'s). I worked as if this was "my company". So yeah, I do feel screwed for the reasons you say and more...

You're right. It's even worse for OP: he just got canned.

> Yes, they did. Is it okay to let the OP go quickly because they made a mistake: no resources to deal with visa issues, wrong domain expertise, etc? Yes.

Agreed.

> Is it okay to do this without compensation, especially after rescinding other offers, working his personal network, etc? No!

He took a job, and got fired. Every time you take a job you rescind other offers. Every time you get fired you probably look back and think "damn I wish I'd taken one of those other offers". The proximity is the issue here, and the insinuating that they could have known this earlier / not made the hire in the first place.

> The OP din't just do some code, he worked his professional network and went out on a limb for this startup.

He didn't go out on a limb, he had a job there as you point out. He was a salaried employee.

I thought the OP said they hired him and then 1 week in to working he was told he should leave.

If there was any package, like taking on the position would accrue shares and such then he's due that at least along with his weeks pay and his agreed/statutory notice period pay. The rest is probably down to local laws (both localities potentially if the company is operation in both).

I don't know anything about investing in startups but common sense would suggest that this would raise some red flags.

In this specific case the legal is likely very low. It's a startup and it's unlikely they have money to fund a lawsuit. Plus there's that whole "he's from another country" bit which would make collecting on a judgment pretty damn hard.

(That is not to suggest that talking to a lawyer first in these types of matters is a bad idea, of course.)

He might want YC to instruct other YC-backed companies to avoid this behavior in future, sparing other people this problem.

Legally? Sure.

Ethically? No.

> I'm sure the founders feel it was a good business decision.

The next founders who contemplate pulling a cowardly stunt like this shouldn't feel it to be a good business decision.

As it stands, this reflects terribly YC and its startups as a whole.

Hiring for first stage startups is critically important -- ie. it can make or break the company.

If the OP wasn't going to work out for any reason, then it was appropriate to cut him loose as soon as possible, instead of dragging it out.

One (not primary, but fairly clear) source:

http://www.cslaw.com/our-practice/san-francisco/employment-c...

Googling "california at-will good faith" will unearth much more.

Edit: more detail, including that this isn't specific to explicit employment contracts. Also, I'm in no way saying this case would fall under this, only that at-will isn't absolute in CA, even beyond the normal discrimination boundaries.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Breach+of+an+I...

All legal.

Maybe this business succeeds, maybe they fail (they are a startup, and most startups don't succeed).

But, the OP will always need a job. And quite frankly, getting upset over a termination and coming online and bringing major flak to the business is a sure-fire way to get the OP rejected out of any HM's stack if they know what they are doing. Why would I want to hire someone who has a history of flaming previous employers? It doesn't matter the reason they flamed the previous employers, it's the fact that they did it at all. That goes double for anyone who is trying to get hired into top executive positions, such as COO.

It's not personal, it's business... and if the OP can't distinguish between the two, then he's not ready for top level executive positions.

It's not too difficult to find the OP's real life identity based on his past work. From that, the information on http://angel.co/ pretty much gives it away.

If it is, well, they still need to do cleanup. OP, can you confirm/deny?

Besides, there advertisement rarely have negative effect.

I wish my startup was mistakenly confused as a place that fired OP.

SketchDeck (YC W14) is hiring its first employee (sketch-deck.com) - 70 days ago

We're now looking for our first employee. (...) You are going to run SketchDeck day-to-day whilst masterminding our scale to become the biggest design agency in the world.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7819953

[2] http://blog.sketch-deck.com/sketchdeck-first-hire/

Specifically, it looks like a linearly scalable enterprise (consulting-like: they provide custom design on demand).

How is this appealing for an investor? I'm not deeply involved in the mechanics of looking for funding, but I thought investors kind of shunned consulting startups.

Today I learned that its considered "bridge burning" to communicate a company's terrible ethics in public.

That said, there are various things involved with the decision.

Conversely, if you're a consultant, you can get constructively fired like this two weeks into an engagement. Happens all the time. It doesn't even require an awkward conversation where they say "Hey, startup life yo, plans have changed." They neglect to schedule you for more work, you follow up, they continue to neglect to schedule you for more work, you take the hint, and then you get paid $50k+ because that is what COO-level consultants cost for two weeks.

stop short-changing yourself and technology professionals, you do us all a disservice and it's embarrassing. i am literally embarassed for you by this comment. it doesn't matter where you're from - we're talking about someone who was hired as a chief-level executive with a name brand startup in the first world, funded by billionaires or at least hundred-millionaires, or at the VERY least a bunch of millionaires that manage money for pension funds and endowments i.e. venture capitalists.

a shitty CPA (or lawyer) makes that in a few days of work. a good one can make that in literally 1 minute by signing a few documents. they can do that because they have professional respect, something technology workers sorely lack right now.

a CPA also could not get hired, and let go for no reason, within 2 weeks, without having several avenues of recourse through his professional governing body. a lawyer would file suit immediately, something i would do also even though i lack a law degree.

i would literally not stop reading/learning law except to eat, shit and piss until i learned how to get compensatory damages out of them. then again, i make it my mission in life to not be a bitch. but as it turns out, some people are fine with being a bitch, go figure.

What's his professional governing body going to do?

a professional board is basically a labor union dressed up for white collar people. they'll argue until the end of the earth that they aren't, but let's be real, that's what it is.

also, if you're a vp-level or above, and not a significant owner, negotiate a severence package. ever wonder why they have severence packages? this is why. because if you don't, you're highly likely to become a bitch. in fact it's pretty much guaranteed because the cost of losing you is nothing.

The company has a much rosier picture of themselves than you do (and who is to say which one is right?). Think of possible mitigating circumstances, first duty to investors, what's right for the company, we made a mistake, etc etc and who knows what else.

You don't want to make enemies, have them hit back in public, etc. This is not about what is "just" but what is efficient to get on with finding a job, and telling everyone about it.

So I do think it would be a mistake to make it a public fight and bring up the name of the company.

I have found a new appreciation for things I used to consider bureaucratic at a large company (I am looking at you - HR department at a large company).

In other relationships, 'Shut up and know your place' is the textbook definition of victim shaming in abusive situations.

Not at all. If I hire someone, I'm making a commitment. If I made a mistake, its out of my pocket to make them whole.

Disclaimer: I have made mistakes hiring people, and have paid them for their troubles, even going so far as to be a reference for the other opportunities they had available and telling them it was our mistake.

I really respect this.

If an employee makes a claim that puts you in a bad light, you can then honestly relate what happened. If there's nothing to be ashamed about, you'll come out of the experience fine.

Buffet has a fine definition of ethics:

   The priority is that all of us continue to zealously guard Berkshire's 
   reputation. We can’t be perfect but we can try to be. As I’ve said in these 
   memos for more than 25 years: We can afford to lose money – even a lot of 
   money. But we can’t afford to lose reputation – even a shred of reputation." 
   We must continue to measure every act against not only what is legal but 
   also what we would be happy to have written about on the front page of a 
   national newspaper in an article written by an unfriendly but intelligent 
   reporter.

Because the individual has more to lose. Which is more likely, the public boycott the company or the companies boycott the individual? Especially in the world of tech, even if you're right about a company's bad practice just going off and posting a rant about them online reflects badly on you. It means you probably should have just left the company before you got so angry about them. I personally have some very deeply negative feelings about my time in at&t but now I realize it's my own fault for staying 6 years when I was already fed up in my first 18 months. It just made me bitter.

At the absolute minimum, when they see your name on a resume and immediately associate it with recent memory of a rant on HN or some complex ordeal described in a techcrunch article, they'll think twice about you. Maybe they'll still go forward with you; but their will be a double-think. If someone really wants to post something that's less than positive about a previous employer, that person should do it as objectively as possible. Remove all emotion, only state facts with no sensationalism or leading-questions or anything suggestive and be sure to state the whole thing as just "their very humble opinion". It would also show a sense of responsibility/maturity to state the issues that concerned in in a form of a question. "Who you the reader have done things this way?" And especially to suggest a solution. "The way I would have done it is..."

What happened to the OP here is regrettable and doesn't sound like it's his/her fault. This person handled it professionally by just asking for advice and not mentioning names.

All we'll see is bickering and unverifiable (by us) claims, and without the ability to discover who is in the right, it just looks bad to observers.

It's like having a shouting match in the middle of the parking lot. One of you might be entirely in the right and completely justified, but to the rest of us it just looks like a situation to avoid.

YCombinator people talk to one another. they go to meetups. San Francisco is an incestuous little town. It's hard to break into and having bad blood with people on the inside can make it harder.

They should talk to each other about why this was bad behavior. If the OP mentions the name, the company can respond with their reasons in an adult and professional manner, explain why they needed someone else, and how they are going to make this right. Then they look like smart, grounded pros willing to admit a mistake and will get some free marketing.

Sounds like they do, in fact, need something, and it's a different person.

"Meanwhile potentially having them as a resource who will say 'oh yeah Ex Employee was a really great guy, we regret losing him, definitely hire him if you can' "

He was there 2 weeks, if that. You can't tell if someone was good in that time period. If I got a reference like that about someone who worked at a place for a grab total of 6 days... I'd think something was fishy.

It has nothing to do with the rights and wrongs of the situation. It is about presenting yourself to the rest of the world. Being a bridge-burner doesn't look good to potential employers.

HN has a time delay for nested comments. That's why angersock's comment didn't have a reply link.

Just as most companies are too incompetent or uninterested to search out your dirty laundry, most companies are too incompetent or uninterested to sort it. If they see it, they'll just acknowledge its existence, and probably think twice about you because of it. They won't dig deeper, or spend any effort sussing out who was right and who was wrong. They'll just note it as a red flag.

This is why people advise against "bridge burning," even when you have no reason to believe you'll ever cross that bridge again. It's all about perceptions. "Optics," as they say in corporate parlance. Being seen as a malcontent is never good for your employment prospects, even when you're completely justified.

I think the circumstance is like @jheriko said, as a filter. If an employer sees treating employees bad as dirty laundry, well maybe it isn't the place you want to work, and you're better off not getting an offer.

Think about it from their perspective. They don't know you too well. All they know, at a quick glance, is that you have had problems with a previous employer. They get your side of the story, perhaps, but how are they to know if you're telling the full story, or if you're just the kind of person who complains about things and causes morale issues? They don't have the time or the process to sort that out, so they'll default to the conservative position of assuming you are more trouble than you're worth.

I've seen this torpedo people in job interviews. I've seen it sink the candidacies of people who were otherwise in very strong contention. Is that fair? Of course not. But it's something to keep in mind.

In a perfect world, sure, this would serve as a nice filter to determine if employers are worth working for. In the world we actually live in, this filter will, more often than not, filter you out of a lot of job opportunities. Meanwhile, there are more effective and less risky filters you can apply when vetting an employer.

they might already know and its in your best interest to be honest. getting found out after the fact is bad, regardless as to your employer's intentions.

its really quite different from airing the concerns that led to the situation.

in this specific case the problem is that he worked for a short period and was let go very rapidly. having a 2 week blip as your last role on a CV is worth explaining - but not complaining about.

Anyway, there is a solution to this - it's to develop a personal set of red flags and heuristics that you use to weed out bad founders when you talk to them. I have one, and it disqualifies probably 95% of startups that I talk to. Unfortunately, I'm not sure there's any way to build this reliably short of bitter experience. The problem with a general "post your grievances" board is that you don't get both sides of the story. I know at least one person who has posted their grievances publicly on HN where I personally witnessed what actually went down, and their account is nowhere close to what I witnessed.

Trust me, I am going to google you before I hire you and if I see you being a mess online that means you could be a huge mess in my company. As a startup, when every hiring decision matters, I am going to pass on you.